Upperdark

[Face]

Think they get to take there own rp out right?

So yeah they can just walk/run/crawl/fly past your drow who wil be standing there looking like a lemon.

[Pimple]

Surface PCs are allowed to use that rule as a defense mechanism while in the Upperdark. Thus, they can go around and loot and grind and completely ignore the existence of any Underdark race they come across and suffer no consequences IC or OOC.

No. Consider reporting it as has been suggested so many times now.

[NegInfinity]

How do you get from this...

- Underdark players on the surface, and surface players within the tunnels of the Underdark, who have been identified are considered to have consented to PvP and may be killed on sight. The exceptions are for the city of Sshamath and the Upperdark, where all involved are still required to follow normal PvP rules.

To this? O.o

The rules, as they stand now, state I just have to sit and watch you bash chests and loot bones.

Surface PCs are allowed to use that rule as a defense mechanism while in the Upperdark. Thus, they can go around and loot and grind and completely ignore the existence of any Underdark race they come across and suffer no consequences IC or OOC.

At this point, I think we all know where each other stand. There's not much more to be gained until when/if DMs/Devs make a rulling.

Sigh.

Too much forum talking. Not enough IC interaction and roleplaying. There was plenty of time to set up something fun, like that drow patrol, and instead of that there were two days of arguing about it on the forums.

Get in the game. And do something about it in the game.

That's the way I see it.

[Tekill]

I blame all dwarves.
Any dwarf caught running needs to be kos- It's only fair!
Let's make it so all dwarves need to wear platform shoes while in the upperdark.
The rules clearly state they need to all speak with scottish accents. Failure to do so is a perma strike and requires reporting to the dms and Moradin himself!
I shouldn't have to remind you people of this!

Won't anyone think of the poor deep gnome children affected by this abuse!?

[Babuguuscooties]

You said that PC shouldn't be subjected to an impossible situation.
What I said is that a PC should be subjected to an impossible situation as a result of their actions.
If you're a drow who walks into BG unmasked and say "hi" to a flaming fist patrolman, whatever happens afterwards, you had it coming.

Yes, but that wasn't the situation I was referring to with the lowbie walking to FAI. I agree with you in your scenario that the drow stepped in big doo doo.

Speaking of walking to FAI, once upon a time, my character woke up in FAI, walked outside and had a dragon land on them. This kind of thing happens. Likewise, you totally can bump into a paladin patrol armed and warded to the teeth after finally reaching surface for the first time.

I think there is a bit of a difference between being killed by a random player and a DM. A DM event that results in your instant death could certainly be frustrating, its likely that the DM killing you wasn't directly intentional. I mean, idk that particular situation but its unlikely they did it to get their rocks off. A player just slaughtering lowbies feels different to me. It reminds me too much of games like WoW where end game pvp gear people run over to low level zones just to dominate and feel good about themselves. Color me cautious

Hurt feelings, IMO, happen, when people try too hard to make the game about them or their character. Seen it several times when somebody tries to make an impossibly cool char, get beaten up and get upset.

I do agree that people can get too invested in their character. If Nedrin is killed you won't see me throwing any tantrums, but that's me. I'm not personally interested in going out of my way to PVP anyone who has no interest in PVP either though. Again, that's just my preferred playstyle. I see where you're coming from with the whole "actions and equal reactions thing. I guess that's why I don't play a paladin or an overtly evil drow... Yet!

Also, level 21 is not a low level. It is an epic level character.

I think you misunderstood why I brought up my level. I was saying that I am not a low level player anymore, so for me to say "yeah, its okay for low levels to get crunched. who cares?" wouldn't be from an actual low level's perspective. In other words, it's easy to promote PVP zones when we are all high level and stuff.

Perhaps when YOU are KoS it doesn't mean that you have a license to attack anything that moves and should follow PVP rules? This is something worth thinking about.

So you're saying a drow on the surface is KoS, but can not openly PVP someone else without following PVP rules. Okay, well that answers my question. Just concerned about newbie abuse.

[Tekill]

I found the culprit!!!!
I filmed him in action. DM's can we have some justice please!?

[Babuguuscooties]

I found the culprit!!!!
I filmed him in action. DM's can we have some justice please!?

LOL

[DeepFriedMoose]

So, I'm feeling what Rinzler is saying, myself.



Hello. I'm DeepFriedMoose, and I play a Drow.
[QueueMusic]

From what I've seen, the Surface is a huge, sprawling play area, filled with gold and ponies and rainbows. But it also holds... DANGER.

(Okay, I can't keep up the Troy McClure thing anymore).

In all seriousness, I love the UD. It's atmospheric, and you never really know what's round the next corner. I still haven't explored it all, and I'm looking forward to doing so. I really do want to check out the Surface content as well, not only for the huge amount of area to explore (I love exploration in video games in general, which is why I'm up to a month of playtime in Fallout 4, and still haven't touched the main quests. Screw Sean. He's probably dead.*), but for the RP availability on the Surface, too. Lots of times, there's only a few UD characters on at any time, and as big as the UD is, it can be hard to run into any of them.

Occasionally, I'll bump into a Surfacer and, for the most part, my interactions have been good. Lots of tension and drama: "Is this guy going to try to kill me? Am I going to try to kill them? Hmm...." Even when we part ways, I'm still paranoid for a while. It's nice. There's been some great RP that has come out of handling a Surfacer captive, too.

I have had several interactions where Surfacers just ignore me and go about their business, though. Two examples that spring to mind: one came running around the corner in Kro's, saw me standing with another Drow, and promptly turned and ran, without a word. I kinda thought it was funny, actually witnessing a "NOPE!" in real-time. Another time, a Human was just... strolling around Sshamath, and ignored everything I had to say. They were questing, and couldn't be bothered. (I say they were questing, but in truth, I can't know 100%. But stopping to click on all the NPC's, and then running to their quest areas was a strong clue.) At the time, I thought it was annoying, but there have been times when I wanted to just quest a bit, grind out some XP, and log. I imagine that this happens all the time on the Surface, too -- I'm not saying that it only happens in the UD or UPD.

It wasn't until about a day later that it occurred to me: If I can get ganked for being a Drow and just breathing Surfacer air (which obviously precludes me from taking/doing quests on the Surface), why is it that Surface Characters can get away with that down in the Underdark?

I didn't know at the time that screenshots and reporting such behavior was encouraged, so I did nothing about it. But seeing Rinzler bring up this point made me want to say something about it, too.

So, to cut to the core of my argument, the UD is way smaller than the surface, and half of the UD areas are marked "Upperdark", and the RP hub of our area is also Free-For-All, which means that, provided a Surfacer can get to Sshamath (which is easy enough with the current UD population), they can do more-or-less what they like.

Again, 99% of my interactions with Surfacers in the UD is positive. There's banter, veiled threats, posturing, etc. I have yet to run into any Surfacer in any area marked "Underdark" proper. So, for the most part, everyone playing knows that there's no real consequences for interacting, and any attempt at an RP-out can just end an interaction, and we all go our separate ways.

With the people I see in the UD, I'm fine with this. What rubs me the wrong way, is the lack of reciprocity. The Surface is gigantic -- I don't understand why Underdark players need to be further hampered by having their own limited "real estate" given access to by the "opposing faction", with a zero-tolerance policy going the opposite way. I've tried going to the surface only twice, ever, and both times ended with: "Hey Drow, have you met my Drow-killing sword?"

But, I'm still relatively new to the Server, and I haven't really explored a whole lot, honestly.

So I have a few genuine questions:

Are there any areas on the Surface that are "Neutral" zones like the Upperdark is? or are all Drow KoS on any surface map?

Have interactions with Drow (especially those on the surface) been so bad in the past that it's left such a strong and lasting impression on the community?

Is BGTSCC designed to lean toward Surface play? If so, I think something on the description page might help clarify things. It certainly would have influenced my character-creation decisions early on.


*((AND I SAY THIS HAVING A SON!!! I HAVE MY OWN SON IRL AND I CAN'T BE BOTHERED TO LOOK FOR SEAN!!! I'M A MONSTER!!!! T_T))

[DeepFriedMoose]

I blame all dwarves.
Any dwarf caught running needs to be kos- It's only fair!
Let's make it so all dwarves need to wear platform shoes while in the upperdark.
The rules clearly state they need to all speak with scottish accents. Failure to do so is a perma strike and requires reporting to the dms and Moradin himself!
I shouldn't have to remind you people of this!

Won't anyone think of the poor deep gnome children affected by this abuse!?

I support this. Brokk would look FABULOUS in platforms, and no Duergar worth his salt would run, even if he were on fire. (This is why they have invisibility -- to hide their shame.)

[NegInfinity]

So you're saying a drow on the surface is KoS, but can not openly PVP someone else without following PVP rules. Okay, well that answers my question. Just concerned about newbie abuse.

That sounds like a reasonable approach to me and that's how I'd go about it. This area could use DM clarification, though.

-----

Anyway, if anyone is unhappy about some players in Upperdark, a good idea would be to do something about it IC and IG. Basically, there was this huge argument in this thread, but the thing is during this time I haven't encountered any PC in Upperdark and haven't really been confroted by anyone. So, as I recommended before - patrols, assassination contracts, and all kinds of fun things that can make something interesting happen. Lots of possibilities for fun here. And, of course, DM reports with screens in case of actual rule breach.

[Pimple]

It wasn't until about a day later that it occurred to me: If I can get ganked for being a Drow and just breathing Surfacer air (which obviously precludes me from taking/doing quests on the Surface), why is it that Surface Characters can get away with that down in the Underdark?

They can't. Report it.

[NegInfinity]

So, I'm feeling what Rinzler is saying, myself.



Hello. I'm DeepFriedMoose, and I play a Drow.
[QueueMusic]

From what I've seen, the Surface is a huge, sprawling play area, filled with gold and ponies and rainbows. But it also holds... DANGER.

(Okay, I can't keep up the Troy McClure thing anymore).

In all seriousness, I love the UD. It's atmospheric, and you never really know what's round the next corner. I still haven't explored it all, and I'm looking forward to doing so. I really do want to check out the Surface content as well, not only for the huge amount of area to explore (I love exploration in video games in general, which is why I'm up to a month of playtime in Fallout 4, and still haven't touched the main quests. Screw Sean. He's probably dead.*), but for the RP availability on the Surface, too. Lots of times, there's only a few UD characters on at any time, and as big as the UD is, it can be hard to run into any of them.

Occasionally, I'll bump into a Surfacer and, for the most part, my interactions have been good. Lots of tension and drama: "Is this guy going to try to kill me? Am I going to try to kill them? Hmm...." Even when we part ways, I'm still paranoid for a while. It's nice. There's been some great RP that has come out of handling a Surfacer captive, too.

I have had several interactions where Surfacers just ignore me and go about their business, though. Two examples that spring to mind: one came running around the corner in Kro's, saw me standing with another Drow, and promptly turned and ran, without a word. I kinda thought it was funny, actually witnessing a "NOPE!" in real-time. Another time, a Human was just... strolling around Sshamath, and ignored everything I had to say. They were questing, and couldn't be bothered. (I say they were questing, but in truth, I can't know 100%. But stopping to click on all the NPC's, and then running to their quest areas was a strong clue.) At the time, I thought it was annoying, but there have been times when I wanted to just quest a bit, grind out some XP, and log. I imagine that this happens all the time on the Surface, too -- I'm not saying that it only happens in the UD or UPD.

It wasn't until about a day later that it occurred to me: If I can get ganked for being a Drow and just breathing Surfacer air (which obviously precludes me from taking/doing quests on the Surface), why is it that Surface Characters can get away with that down in the Underdark?

I didn't know at the time that screenshots and reporting such behavior was encouraged, so I did nothing about it. But seeing Rinzler bring up this point made me want to say something about it, too.

So, to cut to the core of my argument, the UD is way smaller than the surface, and half of the UD areas are marked "Upperdark", and the RP hub of our area is also Free-For-All, which means that, provided a Surfacer can get to Sshamath (which is easy enough with the current UD population), they can do more-or-less what they like.

Again, 99% of my interactions with Surfacers in the UD is positive. There's banter, veiled threats, posturing, etc. I have yet to run into any Surfacer in any area marked "Underdark" proper. So, for the most part, everyone playing knows that there's no real consequences for interacting, and any attempt at an RP-out can just end an interaction, and we all go our separate ways.

With the people I see in the UD, I'm fine with this. What rubs me the wrong way, is the lack of reciprocity. The Surface is gigantic -- I don't understand why Underdark players need to be further hampered by having their own limited "real estate" given access to by the "opposing faction", with a zero-tolerance policy going the opposite way. I've tried going to the surface only twice, ever, and both times ended with: "Hey Drow, have you met my Drow-killing sword?"

But, I'm still relatively new to the Server, and I haven't really explored a whole lot, honestly.

So I have a few genuine questions:

Are there any areas on the Surface that are "Neutral" zones like the Upperdark is? or are all Drow KoS on any surface map?

Have interactions with Drow (especially those on the surface) been so bad in the past that it's left such a strong and lasting impression on the community?

Is BGTSCC designed to lean toward Surface play? If so, I think something on the description page might help clarify things. It certainly would have influenced my character-creation decisions early on.


*((AND I SAY THIS HAVING A SON!!! I HAVE MY OWN SON IRL AND I CAN'T BE BOTHERED TO LOOK FOR SEAN!!! I'M A MONSTER!!!! T_T))

Few things you should probably know:
1. Surfacers mechanically can't quest in Underdark. They're locked out of all UD quests. You get "I don't deal with your kind" response from all quest givers.
2. Sshamath is a trade city. Meaning instant murder of a surfacer is forbidden, BUT you definitely need to behave yourself there and treat drow with respect, because the drow are the rulers of the city. So, it should be reasonably easy to get someone into a DM assisted trouble if they misbehave. I think there was a wall of text on sshamath lore regarding that in UD section. You should check it out.
3. If you want to gank upon surfacers, all UD areas outside of Sshamath is a fair game. Not sure about murdering them right outside of the portal though, but I think if they step juuust a little bet beyond that "Mythal" thing, they'll be probably be a fair game. IF they're recognized as surfaces.
4. Surfacers are also FORBIDDEN from questing, grinding and looting in UD areas by rules. If you spot anyone doing that, you should report them with screens.

"UD" areas are those that are marked "Underdark".

[Rinzler]

1. Surfacers mechanically can't quest in Underdark. They're locked out of all UD quests. You get "I don't deal with your kind" response from all quest givers.

They can do Upper Dark quests. (Dumb)

[NegInfinity]

1. Surfacers mechanically can't quest in Underdark. They're locked out of all UD quests. You get "I don't deal with your kind" response from all quest givers.

They can do Upper Dark quests. (Dumb)

And so can you.

[Rinzler]

And so can you. So?

This whole thread is about an appropriate balance between the Underdark and Surface. It's greedy, that's what. Give some exclusivity to the Underdark. There's a million quests on the surface as it is, you don't exactly need more. It just seems you only want more more more for the surface without regard to how it affects the balance of the Underdark.

That, or open up some surface quests to the Underdark PCs.