Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

niapet wrote:Why couldn't you just ban it on the honor system?

Because far too may players would not honor the system. This IS the internet, afterall.

Steve wrote:

niapet wrote:Why couldn't you just ban it on the honor system?

Because far too may players would not honor the system. This IS the internet, afterall.

Actually, what you should say is: We are humans, afterall. (Mostly.)

Can we: yes
Will we: sadly no

No need to continue this discussion, this is a core mechanic and those will likely never be modified in a significant way on BG.

Sun Wukong wrote:In order to 'ban' muling on this server, you need to do the following things:

2) You need to remove the in game consignment store because it could be used to mule over gold at a very minor 10% tax.

Actually, you don't need to remove it, you just need to make the items not visibible to the players other characters that did not put it up. Thats what is needed to be done.

Sun Wukong wrote:5) You need to bind all items to belong to the character that first found them in loot or purchased from an NPC. No one else should be able to use items that others have acquired one way or another. Hence, all you can do with items is to keep them for yourself or sell them to any NPC merchant - where the item could be possibly purchased by others at its full in game value. Which means that players have no reason to actually trade with each other beyond the capacity of informing others when they sell a desirable item to a merchant.

What you need is do is flag the items with an ownership tied to the character, which preferably also stores item ownership changes with timestamps, so that it can effectively be tracked and proven if muling happened. Scripts could also be made to track muling behaviour and flag the player of suspicious activity.

So no, they don't to remove any of the things you mentioned. Its possible that other changes might be needed, but none of the other ones you mentioned would need to be removed to effectively remove muling from the game.

People can have multiple logins and even sets of CD keys. Then they can just add a shortcut to their desktop, and switch between CD keys by just swapping a single file. Oh, and they can pay for some proxy service too. Thus to prevent muling from taking place, you need to remove the in-game consignment store. There is no way around it.


As for just flagging items, it will not work. Who has the time to be on the constant lookout for 'suspicious' activity? Browse through a list of potential false flags? What about the potential of that person starting to show favouritism towards his own mates? Some people can mule, while others cannot. This is why you need to make items so that they can be only used by the character that acquired it. There is no way around it.


And yes, you need to remove rather large chunks of the server to 'end' muling... And ultimately it produces no net good, it just makes things worse for everyone. I guess if you wish to kill the server, you could argue that as some net good, but... I imagine majority would rather see the server continue to live on.

Sun Wukong wrote:People can have multiple logins and even sets of CD keys. Then they can just add a shortcut to their desktop, and switch between CD keys by just swapping a single file. Oh, and they can pay for some proxy service too. Thus to prevent muling from taking place, you need to remove the in-game consignment store. There is no way around it.

There are otherways to deal with the problem with the consignment store with regards to muling. Another fact here, usually with each of use of a proxy it usually means one won't get the same ip address, which could also be use to identify if one is muling.

Sun Wukong wrote:As for just flagging items, it will not work. Who has the time to be on the constant lookout for 'suspicious' activity? Browse through a list of potential false flags? What about the potential of that person starting to show favouritism towards his own mates? Some people can mule, while others cannot. This is why you need to make items so that they can be only used by the character that acquired it. There is no way around it

. How many flags will happen depends a lot on the script and what is determined to be suspicious behaviour. Eventually a typical pattern will show and will make the violators easily distinguishable from other suspicious flags. I don't think that it would be necessary to make it so only the one who aqcuired it who can use it, and don't think it would be good either.

Sun Wukong wrote:And yes, you need to remove rather large chunks of the server to 'end' muling... And ultimately it produces no net good, it just makes things worse for everyone. I guess if you wish to kill the server, you could argue that as some net good, but... I imagine majority would rather see the server continue to live on.

Muling produces a lot of issues, so yes a lot of net good would come of it, besides, if those that want to mule and engages in this sort of activities should also realize that this hurt the server and a lot of various things, so those that do it are those that are diminishing the quality and a reduction in the overall enjoyment of the server - which affect the players of the server and they're effectively causing staff to use time, energy and efforts to deal with the problems they make because of it.

I hate posting on forums, but after pages of people mostly saying they want more and more restrictions I felt I had to speak up.

My opinion is that muling is beneficial and banning it is harmful. Banning muling is forcing people to play the way someone else wants them to play. This sort of force should be used sparingly if ever.

Always ask yourself, "Can I get what I want without using force?" The answer to all of the concerns I have read is "yes."

If you want to play with people with an approximate similar level of gear to you, but they are not geared out because they are new, take off your gear or spend some money on weaker spares. You now have a challenging experience.

DMs can deal with crazy mega-high skills rolls on their own, they don't need our help. There are a ton of options available to them, up to and including just ruling that the DC is impossibly difficult or not asking for a skill roll in the first place. Players can already ignore skill rolls from other players entirely, it's in the rules.

If you want a non-challenging experience, which some people do sometimes, roll with any awesome gear you've gotten previously. This doesn't hurt anybody else. I don't grind hardly at all, and I never have, so my gear has been awful. I don't feel, and nobody should feel, jealous someone else has excellent gear. The only time this is a problem is in PvP, but RP outs solve this problem (maybe sub-optimally, but it works).

It has already been stated that by level 5 and 10,000 gold you can get pretty excellent gear, allowing someone to strip away the challenge of lower levels. Fine! Let them! Low levels offer a totally different experience than high levels, and some people don't want to play low levels. I'm purposefully not leveling Zoey up from level 5 because I want her to be a pathetic weakling. It's the same reason I took the Commoner class for her. But just because I like the experience of being unable to leave Baldur's Gate un-escorted doesn't mean other people like it. Maybe their concept needs them to be level 16+ and they just want to race through the bottom tier. Sure! Let them!

Level 1 "should" be a dangerous time? Give me a break, stop telling me what I should or shouldn't enjoy. That is entirely up to me, and same for every other player. Let there be choice! Right now there is choice, I can get tons of challenge or I can play it easy. Sometimes I am in the mood for one and not the other. How is that bad?

There is no CR challenge problem in monsters. Simply change your own equipment to the challenge you desire. Other people will do likewise. Can't find a group to do the same? Make a forum post. If the "Server Vault Wipe Club" can attract members, I am sure that you can find people willing to voluntarily place whatever restrictions you can imagine on themselves.

The only advantage "dragon players" have is flexibility. They, unlike everyone else, have the option to choose more powerful over less powerful. That is a flexibility that I think the server has decided to restrict because, as has been mentioned, infinite gold destroys the economy and all RP options that go with it.

As an aside, I do not mind the current setup because I know that there has to be some limitations for an economy to exist, and we need an economy for merchant characters, who are a rightfully popular archetype to play. I wouldn't want them to vanish. But I do think we should have the minimum necessary restrictions to maximize player RP choice.

The thread seems to take light of how much of an impact this has on RP. Banning muling would have a real and negative impact on RP choice, same for RCR limitations (but that's another story).

Why can't I play the foolish rich son, pampered to naivety by his parents, given everything for free and always told he's the very best? That character could go out into the world with the best gear and the worst skills, and the journey of coming to the realization that the most valuable things in life must be earned sounds like an engaging, dynamic story to me.

How about a retired adventurer? An elf who, 300 years ago, slew her fair share of dragons and accumulated great artifacts of power, but then decided to settle down and have some kids? Now her children are out of her nest and some new threat brings her out of retirement - but boy is she rusty. Now she has to face the social and emotional tolls of coming out of retirement - is it OK to take the same risks as before, when her children still need her mature guidance and loving relationship? How does her change in life state make adventuring different?

These aren't "justifications for OOC behavior" they're not "metagaming" they are legitimate plot archs and characterization paths that would be difficult or impossible to do realistically should muling be banned. The only injustice I see here is that they're not available for new players. The answer is not to enforce that wrong on even more players, it is to lessen it as much as possible.


So it is my position that no, we should not ban muling, and no, we should not put item level restrictions back on.

Oooh item level limits.. yeah I like it. It made me ill when I read the comment that people make a character around an item they found...seriously? Just wow....

Incarnate wrote:There are otherways to deal with the problem with the consignment store with regards to muling. Another fact here, usually with each of use of a proxy it usually means one won't get the same ip address, which could also be use to identify if one is muling.

You know nothing of proxy servers.

Incarnate wrote:. How many flags will happen depends a lot on the script and what is determined to be suspicious behaviour. Eventually a typical pattern will show and will make the violators easily distinguishable from other suspicious flags. I don't think that it would be necessary to make it so only the one who aqcuired it who can use it, and don't think it would be good either.

But the thing with groundless witch hunts, erm... mule hunts, is that you will not be satisfied until the server is without a single player.

Additionally, do consider the possibility of true positives, false positives, true negatives, and false negatives. If a true positive marks a true muler cought by the script, there will be false positives also identified by the script. Likewise some mulers will go undetected as false negatives. What are you going to do with the people wrongly banned for muling? What are you going to do with the people who continue to mule regardless of your script?

You know nothing about identifying people and scripts.

Incarnate wrote:Muling produces a lot of issues, so yes a lot of net good would come of it, besides, if those that want to mule and engages in this sort of activities should also realize that this hurt the server and a lot of various things, so those that do it are those that are diminishing the quality and a reduction in the overall enjoyment of the server - which affect the players of the server and they're effectively causing staff to use time, energy and efforts to deal with the problems they make because of it.

And once again, you speak of a multitude of issues without actually naming a single one. Not to mention that you repeatedly demonstrate a complete and utter lack of understanding of the rudimentary requirements to see your desire fullfillied.

You demand colossal changes without knowing or understanding a single thing about your desired change.

Do yourself a favour, log in game, grind for one hour, and just mule your recently acquired loot to a new character. It has robbed no one of nothing.

All my characters ( 30+) are made around an item i found.

Banning muling would prevent me from that, unless i broke the rules. So I would have to use nwnlist.com to find a server i would be able to.

Sun Wukong wrote:

Incarnate wrote:Muling produces a lot of issues, so yes a lot of net good would come of it, besides, if those that want to mule and engages in this sort of activities should also realize that this hurt the server and a lot of various things, so those that do it are those that are diminishing the quality and a reduction in the overall enjoyment of the server - which affect the players of the server and they're effectively causing staff to use time, energy and efforts to deal with the problems they make because of it.

And once again, you speak of a multitude of issues without actually naming a single one. Not to mention that you repeatedly demonstrate a complete and utter lack of understanding of the rudimentary requirements to see your desire fullfillied.

I actually have pointed out a lot of things in this very thread a lot of things it affects, but apparently you've missed it, but it is in this thread. Also quoted others who've pointed the things out or have made an explanation to what it does. I know a lot more than you think, you're assuming just because I don't put everything in then it means thats the only way it can be from my perspective which it most certainly isn't. However, using your logic since you're pro muling, it would seem that either you don't understand what muling achieves on a serverwide scale. Now I'm not going name a single thing it will affect, but it does affect game balance, especially CvC / PvP, it affects the economy negatively. This isn't is Diablo or Path of Exile where it doesn't matter if one where to mule because that is specifically made for it, even those two game has rpg elements to it, they aren't a true rpg. Muling does a lot more than you seem to want to merit. Apparently you haven't noticed that a lot of people see its a problem, so its not only me, even a lot of staff recognizes it as a problem but tolerate because they don't know how to deal with the problem effeciently.

I'll admit, back in the day I muled like crazy. Why? We didn't have a dedicated storage system (which is currently in Beta and offered by actual mules/horses), and looting was much more competitive since chests were not instanced. Most of the time, this 'muling' was simply to reserve storage space for items that at the time I was unable to use due to the level restrictions that were implemented at the time.

Came back, no level restrictions. As a result, I was able to use those items I was saving on the people they were intended for, and sold off the excess.

Result? Muling has become much less attractive, and not worth the time investment when I'd rather be running about playing in game or RPing.

But also, after being here for the length of time I have, money making isn't really a chore once wealth is accumulated. Result? I almost never mule anymore, most of the time if I RCR though, I will hop on a toon to hold the gear during RCR. This could easily be mistaken for muling. Also, if I am at the AH, see an item I would want for another toon, hop on that toon and buy it, is that not meta? But how far are we going to take this?

Have I twinked? To a certain degree at times when trying out new builds, but never to the extent of giving a character gear that is far beyond the first few levels. I've even gotten some REALLY good gear when adventuring with low level characters that my higher levels never got before, and it was toon appropriate. Most of the time anyway, this would end up in the character being scrapped (back before RCR was 100% before 10), and the gear given away during RP or sold off. I've given away mithril chainmail, bracers of archery, elven longswords etc because it's more valuable seeing use on a new character than just sitting on a character bank. Item's sitting on a mule are nearly as good as not existing, I'd rather see these items in the hands of a player, even if that player sells it off at some point.

Anyway, I guess what I'm saying, is that the loot seems to be more generous. I don't see the harm in starting a new character with a +1 weapon and a +2 set of armor and maybe some boots or an ok helm or something. I remember starting at level 1 graveyard and being stomped down by the first skeleton mob that ran up to me. When were talking about +1 and +2 items, they are such a minor part of the economy I don't think that really is the issue here.

The issue is, to be blunt and going back to an older thread, the character that was running around with a 40 SR cloak from a DM event on a level 13. Isolated event?

At any rate, I think muling is MUCH less worth the time investment required by players that it used to be, as better items are much more readily available and in circulation than used to be, and with instanced chests no more competitive chest looting.

I blame gnomes for the poor economy. Those greedy little gem clutchers have been ruining this coast for years.

This is an individual issue, not a server issue. Don't like muling? Then don't mule. Easy.

Another huge thread on a nothing issue.

Incarnate wrote:I actually have pointed out a lot of things in this very thread a lot of things it affects, but apparently you've missed it, but it is in this thread. Also quoted others who've pointed the things out or have made an explanation to what it does.

Feel free to present a list if you believe there is any valid argument to be presented. Or just quote previous posts.

Incarnate wrote:I know a lot more than you think, you're assuming just because I don't put everything in then it means thats the only way it can be from my perspective which it most certainly isn't.

On the issue of proxy servers, I could also mention that not every player has a stable IP address. For example, there are networks run with DDNS, which means that the IP address on your end can change from time to time. Then there are players that might have to travel for one reason or another, and NWN2 is actually a multiplayer game that can be easily played over a 'free wifi' - and therefore, tracking IP addresses to detect mulers will create false positives. Hence, either you ban innocent people for no crime done, or you have someone asking for additional questions in order to determine if muling was actually done. People are not infallible. Mistakes can be made, positions can be abused, and the person in the position can be tricked and abused as well. This is why IP trackign is a poor solution to prevent muling.

Incarnate wrote:However, using your logic since you're pro muling, it would seem that either you don't understand what muling achieves on a serverwide scale.

A dead server is not fun. Rules that are enforced for some and not for others is not fun. Unnecessary limitations are not fun. I am pro-fun.

Incarnate wrote:Now I'm not going name a single thing it will affect, but it does affect game balance, especially CvC / PvP, it affects the economy negatively.

You are not going to name actual examples, because you cannot name a single actual example. It should be easy to prove me wrong.

As for PvP, there are rules in place to prevent it from taking place without some in-character justification. Not to mention that it is actually impossible to create truly balanced PvP with the third edition D&D rules. How are you going to bridge the power gap between a level 1 and level 30 character? It does not exactly help that due to the nature of this game itself 'mechanical power' is acquired in bursts and at unspecified levels, although mostly at 20+. Then you can have characters that are item dependant, and characters that are not. The only way for balanced PvP to exist is by limiting everyone to a singular build, with a singular set of equipment, so that victor is determined by player skill or sheer luck.

Muling is not a PvP balance concern because the equipment available on this server is rather limited in nature. I mean, it is not like we can have those +8 weapons with three types of 5d6 elemental damage on them. And while a +4 weapon at level 1 might be a notable boon, hoever, its effect is not exactly notable in a matter of just few additional levels. I mean, when my Wisdom based Ranger acquired Epic Longbow of Knocking to replace her Greater Longbow of Knocking, I honestly could not tell the difference. +3 EB, +4 EB? The difference does not exist, it is just +5% chance to hit, and less than that in damage output.

As for server economy, any ban on muling will have only have a detrimental effect to the economy. Inventory slots are limited, which means that any established merchant can only afford to keep a select few of their best items in their limited number of inventory slots. Additionally, what is the value of in game gold again? The correct answer to that is that it depends. A player that desires an item sold in an NPC store will treat in game gold as a thing of value, but a player that sees no desirable item in an NPC store sees in game gold as a thing of no value. The value of in game gold is determined solely by its use. This means that more often than not some rare items can only be traded for other rare items. But unfortunately not all rare items are equally desired, and we have to consider the actual supply and demand. A greatly desired item is unlikely to be traded to a less desired item, or even to a pile of less desired items due to nature of now limited inventory space. Hence, you can only trade singular things of equal value. The high end server economy stagnates.

Now, some could try to argue that since people cannot just drop a mountain of equipment to a new character, it would actually drive up the interest for and hence raise the price of more 'mundane' +3 or +4 equipment. But the fact remains that you can already purchase those +3 and +4 pieces of equipment from NPC merchants. There is already an actual in game gold cap that limits the amount of gold that people are willing to pay, which in turn discourages players from wasting their limited number of inventory slots with these items. It makes more sense for a player to just sell those items to a NPC merchant and free inventory space for another loot run, which will also grant them experience points towards the next level up, a process that gives them enough gold to buy their items straight from NPC merchants. Now, some might still insist that the lack of supply would increase the price, but they are only saying it because they have ignored the demand. It is possible to create character builds that are not exactly item dependant, such as most arcanists and divine casters. Why buy a piece of +4 equipment when a spell can grant you that +4, +5, +6, or something far higher. The only item of universal interest would be the dodge boots, and these days you can buy +3 and +4 dodge boots from NPC merchants. The low end server economy stagnates.

Not to mention that new players without mountains of previously muled equipment could easily invigorate those old accusations of grandfathered equipment and how it is unfair for newer players. How there are two stocks of players, the haves and have nots.

In short, a ban on muling would be a disaster for the server economy, have no effect on PvP balance, and generate accusations of favoritism and sensation of unfairness. So please, once again, do tell me of the evils of muling.

Incarnate wrote:This isn't is Diablo or Path of Exile where it doesn't matter if one where to mule because that is specifically made for it, even those two game has rpg elements to it, they aren't a true rpg. Muling does a lot more than you seem to want to merit. Apparently you haven't noticed that a lot of people see its a problem, so its not only me, even a lot of staff recognizes it as a problem but tolerate because they don't know how to deal with the problem effeciently.

In Diablo, you run in circles to gain loot and experience. In BGTSCC, you run in circles to gain loot and experience. And honestly, I do take Diablo II RP over the campfire RP any day.

As for seeing it is a problem, the funny thing about human mind is that if people repeat long enough that something is a problem, it will be eventually seen as a problem. It does not make it a problem, but people will see it as such. There is no problem with muling, apart from a few jealous individuals who are unwilling to see any effort themselves.

So what can I say? Incarnate, stop being a lazy bum, and get off the couch.

niapet wrote:Oooh item level limits.. yeah I like it.

Item level limits existed before, and they were garbage.

As a fighter you couldn't even equip a full plate armor at level 1. Because of restrictions.

Keep in mind that item level restricitons only widen the gap between low and high level characters. Because it allows high level characters to have better gear.

niapet wrote: It made me ill when I read the comment that people make a character around an item they found...seriously?

Why? It makes perfect sense. You take a cool weapon, and turn it into integral part of some character's story.