Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

Fury_US wrote:I think the biggest problem I have with this whole argument on how to make levelling fun is that it is almost universally coming from the viewpoint of a virgin player and a virgin character.

I think precisely zero of us are that.

We've seen it, over and over and over again. And unless you have the mental fortitude of a Golden Age WoW gold farmer, levelling is, and always will be (insert preferred expletive here) excrutiating. You either grind- whether it be the endless circle of agony that is Xvarts, or it's groups running endlessly through dungeons, it's still grinding. You quest- Don't know about you, but the 20 or so weekly quests we have? Are interesting and fun about a grand total of once. By the time I'm level 15, I'm ready to drink poison than have to do those damned things yet again. Fortunately RP finally generates a reasonable amount of XP reward- and that's the only thing that allowed me to stick it out and make it all the way to 30- which took me more than a year. Because of the agony of levelling.

I know several people who have left the server with no intents of coming back primarily because of the misery of levelling here, and it all stems from the fact that the process is nothing more than wash, rinse, repeat ad nauseum (with a healthy dose of nauseum, btw). I really don't know a way to improve upon the matter since we're a server of finite size, with finite staff on a dying game and operating entirely on volunteer time. I get that, I'm not screaming things need to be changed. I just find it kind of insulting to be told I should be enjoying a process that the vast majority of people clearly find to be the exact opposite of enjoyable.

I dunno. I guess I just can't fathom why in the hell, given all the other concessions this server has made, with the age of the game and the shriveling of the community that "Ok, yeah. Once per year, we have one week of 100% RCR. Merry Christmas, and thank you all for hanging with us this long!" But that's just me.

"excruciating". "like drinking poison". "misery"

Then you're doing it wrong.

pain is an indicator of doing something wrong. If you are in pain grinding xvarts, take on a bigger challenge. Adventure instead of grind. Cheat death. Embrace death. Die like a warrior, instead of living like a death camp nazi.

No, I assure you, I'm not doing it wrong. It's simply I do not enjoy it. And there is no way to make it enjoyable. Especially after the sheer amount of times it must be done. It was fun once. Tolerable the next time. After it's done and done again, and again, and again because there's just a bloody limit to what is available, then no. Sorry. It's not fun. If you are having a blast with it because that's what you enjoy, good on you. I congratulate you on your mental fortitude to endure utter drudgery. Many, however, just simply do not.

I just find it kind of insulting to be told I should be enjoying a process that the vast majority of people clearly find to be the exact opposite of enjoyable.

Fury_US wrote:I think the biggest problem I have with this whole argument on how to make levelling fun is that it is almost universally coming from the viewpoint of a virgin player and a virgin character.

I think precisely zero of us are that.

Its not zero the number of virgins ( ) and the argument of making the leveling fun does not come from a virgin ( ) player's viewpoint. The purpose of making the leveling fun is because that is what this server promotes among other things. A fun levelling experience. That is why the fishing was added, that is why the exploration nodes are added. If we were not for that, we wouldnt have worked on such projects. Instead of having always to play on a level30 char ( which you can do already ) new projects are added ( appearances, classes, feats, etc ) to encourage a releveling process. Thats the concept, whether those involved are doing a good job to achieve that, that is of course something you can debate.

We've seen it, over and over and over again. And unless you have the mental fortitude of a Golden Age WoW gold farmer, levelling is, and always will be (insert preferred expletive here) excrutiating. You either grind- whether it be the endless circle of agony that is Xvarts, or it's groups running endlessly through dungeons, it's still grinding. You quest- Don't know about you, but the 20 or so weekly quests we have? Are interesting and fun about a grand total of once. By the time I'm level 15, I'm ready to drink poison than have to do those damned things yet again. Fortunately RP finally generates a reasonable amount of XP reward- and that's the only thing that allowed me to stick it out and make it all the way to 30- which took me more than a year. Because of the agony of levelling.

I assume all the expressions here are used for effect, rather than being used as a pragmatic way to evaluate the leveling process on BG. Because if they are, then they are completely wrong - nowhere close to the truth.

I understand those not liking the leveling process and i understand those that do like it. I understand those that want to be level 30 in order to rp and those that dont give a damn. What i dont understand is, not liking the grinding, the leveling etc, but rushing to 30. It just doesnt make sense. We pick our poison and we stick with it. Wanting to have it all, usually ends in disappointment

I know several people who have left the server with no intents of coming back primarily because of the misery of levelling here, and it all stems from the fact that the process is nothing more than wash, rinse, repeat ad nauseum (with a healthy dose of nauseum, btw). I really don't know a way to improve upon the matter since we're a server of finite size, with finite staff on a dying game and operating entirely on volunteer time. I get that, I'm not screaming things need to be changed.

The nwn2 game is far from being described a dying game. Any other 10+ year old game would have died. nwn2, because of the community and the kind of people it attracts wont die, unless a new version of nwn2/Bgtscc is implemented. Then we will all go there.

Speaking about BGTSCC, with the new devs and the commitment of those "running" bg, it is safe to say that we will soon as a community go to players funeral ( dying of old age of course ) or talking about new born babys etc, rather than the game dying.

I just find it kind of insulting to be told I should be enjoying a process that the vast majority of people clearly find to be the exact opposite of enjoyable.

I dunno. I guess I just can't fathom why in the hell, given all the other concessions this server has made, with the age of the game and the shriveling of the community that "Ok, yeah. Once per year, we have one week of 100% RCR. Merry Christmas, and thank you all for hanging with us this long!" But that's just me.

It is not just you that feels this way. There is nothing wrong about feeling like this either. However, you dont have to rcr. And if you do, rcring and starting from level 20 is not the experience you make it like to be.

Decide what is it you like to do on BG ( if anything ) and do it.

"take on a bigger challenge."


>Raises an army of 20 adventurers.
>Tackles and defeats white dragon.
>Did heavy co-ordination and preparation, made great effort during the fight itself.
>Gets 100 XP and an empty spirits bottle

>Goes to whack minotaurs at level 20
>Gets 20+ XP and easy kills
>Literally just clicks and kills
>Lots of loot



Taking on challenge is not rewarded either XP-wise or item-wise.


Going to new places, clearing challenges and the like should be rewarded.

>Manage to sneak through netherese maze back in Ye Olde Days when UD was hard to get to on a 10 sorc/10EK/7DW character.
>Get a grand total of 0 XP

>Go whack trolls in the troll claws
>Get decent XP and no challenge.


One decentish way to make levelling less of a torture would be to make weekly repeatable quests for each dungeon where their details are literally "reach this position, be rewarded XP automatically." Would remove the OOC annoyance at low spawn rates, would reward sneak thief style characters, would encourage exploration - especially if XP reward scales with difficulty.



While I havn't touched Haven, my friend I recruited from another RP game to BG did. Despite having been an avid grinder on BG, getting to 30 in something like a month, he remarked that the dungeon and spawn system on Haven - and the associated rewards - felt much more satisfying.


What I did touch was Galtarian - Danish only NWN2 server. It had a system that discouraged killing mobs and encouraged exploration for progress - indeed, it was possible to jump whole levels ahead when you were very low level if you could somehow form an army to get somewhere dangerous and trigger the right scripts.

NeOmega wrote:i think the idea was for more fun, not making levelling easier.

As I understand it, it was to let Epic characters visit low level dungeons and earn XP there, thus chasing away the natural low level characters, who now can't touch the enhanced monsters.

So why did those Epic level characters need to visit the low level dungeons? Presumably because they got bored visiting the same old high CR ones. And they had to do that because of slow levelling...

See how it all fits together? One base choice leads to all sorts of problems, which in turn lead to numerous kludges to "fix" things. Maybe, just maybe, it might be better to change the base choice, eh?

Thorsson wrote:

NeOmega wrote:i think the idea was for more fun, not making levelling easier.

As I understand it, it was to let Epic characters visit low level dungeons and earn XP there, thus chasing away the natural low level characters, who now can't touch the enhanced monsters.

So why did those Epic level characters need to visit the low level dungeons? Presumably because they got bored visiting the same old high CR ones. And they had to do that because of slow levelling...

See how it all fits together? One base choice leads to all sorts of problems, which in turn lead to numerous kludges to "fix" things. Maybe, just maybe, it might be better to change the base choice, eh?

One Two question for your understanding. Do epic characters trigger low level areas? Is there a limit that a higher level can trigger a lower cr area?

NeOmega wrote: Grinding alone is never boring for me, because

Different people enjoy different things.

I did too much grinding back when I had a lot of characters , and now I hate it. Along with quests.

NeOmega wrote: and if you want to tell me you enjoy the game differently, that progression and "development" of your character is what you enjoy... ...cool, grind away. But dont blame the server because it is such a chore, and unfun.... ....because i dont have the whole "unfun" issue, yet I am playing the same server... ...so its not the server's XP system thats the issue.

Dude. Different people enjoy different things. You are not all players. You need to realize it. Somebody else will not start enjoying a thing they hate if you actaully like it.

To be fair? I have my character the way I want her. I don't need an RCR, personally- I just believe that one week per year would be an extraordinarily cool thing for the server to do for the players. That, however, wasn't the point of my commenting, it was an add on at the end- just pointing out something that would, in the grand scheme of things, be a little thing that would make a lot of people happy.

My comments regarding levelling? Pragmatic? Probably not, no-call it "artistic liberty" if you like. But I'm not the only one who finds it to be an accurate description of what it's like for them. All that said, I would like to say that the exploration nodes, and dynamic CR? Fabulous! If I could make one suggestion? More quests. Progressive, narrative quests- where you start at point A. in your character's "journey", and end at point Z. Quests that are specific to lore based factions would be also stellar, IMO. I don't suppose it's a fix-all, because eventually we all see that and what is new will become old, and etc etc. But it does encourage exploration, and provides a great opportunity for developing server lore and narrative.

Fury_US wrote:No, I assure you, I'm not doing it wrong. It's simply I do not enjoy it. And there is no way to make it enjoyable. Especially after the sheer amount of times it must be done. It was fun once. Tolerable the next time. After it's done and done again, and again, and again because there's just a bloody limit to what is available, then no. Sorry. It's not fun. If you are having a blast with it because that's what you enjoy, good on you. I congratulate you on your mental fortitude to endure utter drudgery. Many, however, just simply do not.

I just find it kind of insulting to be told I should be enjoying a process that the vast majority of people clearly find to be the exact opposite of enjoyable.

then you are a masochist.

If it is not fun, why do you do it?

NegInfinity wrote:

NeOmega wrote: Grinding alone is never boring for me, because

Different people enjoy different things.

I did too much grinding back when I had a lot of characters , and now I hate it. Along with quests.

NeOmega wrote: and if you want to tell me you enjoy the game differently, that progression and "development" of your character is what you enjoy... ...cool, grind away. But dont blame the server because it is such a chore, and unfun.... ....because i dont have the whole "unfun" issue, yet I am playing the same server... ...so its not the server's XP system thats the issue.

Dude. Different people enjoy different things. You are not all players. You need to realize it. Somebody else will not start enjoying a thing they hate if you actaully like it.

aaaachtuuuuallly..... some people enjoy themselves, and some people call it a chore. you keep saying enjoy... i do not think you know what that word means.

Uh... you know. RP?

NeOmega wrote: aaaachtuuuuallly..... some people enjoy themselves, and some people call it a chore. you keep saying enjoy... i do not think you know what that word means.

So?

Some people enjoy ice cream, some enjoy chili. Therefore if you dare to like ice cream, you must be forcefed 2 kilogram of chili every day. Because that's the only true way to enjoy food and all other ways are a heresy and abomination in the eyes of Lathander. Is this the kind of logic you propose?

Honestly, what the hell? You've been on the server for a few years, and you are an adult. You're supposed to have figured "different tastes" thing by now. Without all the "I do not think you know what that word means". Yeah, I do know what it means, thank you.

Like Fury_US said, the fun part - for ME - was always RP, when it happens. Not grinding.

Fury_US wrote:Uh... you know. RP?

what cognitive dissonace.

"I come for the RP, but to enjoy RP, i have to run around in circles for hours in the xvart village, because..."

I'll let you finish that sentence.

NegInfinity wrote:

NeOmega wrote: aaaachtuuuuallly..... some people enjoy themselves, and some people call it a chore. you keep saying enjoy... i do not think you know what that word means.

So?

Some people enjoy ice cream, some enjoy chili. Therefore if you dare to like ice cream, you must be forcefed 2 kilogram of chili every day. Because that's the only true way to enjoy food and all other ways are a heresy and abomination in the eyes of Lathander. Is this the kind of logic you propose?

Honestly, what the hell? You've been on the server for a few years, and you are an adult. You're supposed to have figured "different tastes" thing by now. Without all the "I do not think you know what that word means". Yeah, I do know what it means, thank you.

Like Fury_US said, the fun part - for ME - was always RP, when it happens. Not grinding.

yes, when people have fine ice cream, i hear them say thing like, " this ice cream is excruciating. what a chore! I have to eat it to enjoy it! Ice cream is so bad, i know lots of people that ate so much ice cream they had to stop because it was so horrible to eat ice cream"

NeOmega wrote:

Fury_US wrote:Uh... you know. RP?

what cognitive dissonace.

...

I want the old NeOmega back. Not sure what happened to you. If you're having a bad day, I suggest to chill.

People advance levels because the levels mechanically lock them out of other areas. Go to far away, and the weakest enemy in the area will kill your characters by farting in their general direction. But you know that already.

Speaking of grinding, I do not grind anymore. As a result in the last year I gained 4 levels total across all characters. For the same reason I no longer roll out new concepts unless there's free RCR period going on. The leveling processs is a pain, and I do not have the time or patience to deal with this obligatory torture anymore.