Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

@chambordini:

Are you saying that of the many DM available, with multiple Head DMs, multiple CCs and the likes...none can be the UD DM, and you actually need a new one?

Joke?

@aaron:

You need a DM to be able to manipulate the game world so as to actually change the status quo. Otherwise you’re a godmodder.

It’s no band aid at all. It’s the answer to Israe’s post.

Diamore wrote: You are not suggesting it Steve. However...

Evidence you are wrong.

Wouldn't be the first time! However...

Imagine a Server where there are just DMs. Now, imagine a Server where there are just Players. Neither sounds like very much fun!

Maybe I was being unclear, but my point is: Players from the UD are looking to have something—which might be Surface interactions—and DMs can actually provide an environment to attempt to realize those desires—they can and should be IC desires, most of all.

It is a partnership. What I observer is a bunch of UD players that could use some DM assistance, in terms of attention, in order to say "Yes, I'm a DM, and I have a Role and power...and I see you want to IC create something that is like 99.9% unlikely, but hey, if you want to attempt such a "thing" with high consequence from a built-in high failure rate, sure...I'll set that up for you. And along the way, we'll have a bunch of fun watching your PCs die...I mean, have fun."

What this requires is the Great Partnership, of dedicated Players to the Campaign the DM oversees, in their Role as Dungeon Master. Simple is that.

What do most DMs want? Dedicated Players for their Campaigns, that invest. What do Players want? Dedicated DMs for their Campaigns.

All I see is a bunch of UDers that want to participate in this. I think that is a great thing. Hopefully, some DMs see that as well!!!

It seems a lot of questions in this thread can be matched with answers from this thread.

... honestly, I don't even know how to interact with UD travelling surfacers anymore.

easy/best answer is this:

if surfacers were made KOS anywhere in the Upperdark or Underdark. Maybe, juuuust maybe, it would put the fear back into surfacers who choose to go down into those places.

this also meets the requirement for the reason to implement the upperdark, if it REALLY was to give the surfacers a chance to experience what the flavour of the underdark tastes like then...

--it tastes like murder, the knife in the back without warning kind of murder. Not, 'oh, that guy might not want to be murdered, let me go ask him, then if he's ok with it, we'll pretend he didn't see me and is just buffing up because he felt like it at this exact time"
I'm a drow, this is our cave, and your grave.

I play only a single underdark toon, and enjoyed the rp intrigue, but started losing faith in how things below ground are being encouraged as 'rp zones' for surfacers. Even the areas around Rockrun have the Coven stronghold, they will and should kill you on sight as they'll kill other drow without a fast mouth or faster feet. Inside Rockrun is neutral as it should be, but I think we need a stronger push toward danger for surfacers below ground, especially if this system exists above ground for underdarkers.

The whole 'pvp out' system was created largely for surface pvp, because in the UD I don't know that I've ever come across a problem with it. Now we're seeing more issues as surface pcs come down, carrying their 'pvp out' backpacks and foam helmets.

No. that's not how it's done below the surface. It's not lore at all, and any drow you see will want to kill you. That's lore. They're not going to check with you, everyone is kos in the underdark, even other drow, unless they can find an rp way to put it off until later.

This I totally agree with.

Alternatively, such a dedicated, amazing RP group like the dedicated UDers could get a dedicated UD DM. The DM would create a metaplot for the UD, distribute the information across events dedicated to guilds and eventual special requests, and help the players manage the conflict that would naturally evolve as a consequence. It's been done before, with pretty good results.

The surface conflict would be "just another thing" a UD character could possibly do, if a strong RP angle presents itself.

End of the problem?

I've done maybe two dm run events in the UD, and loved them both. I really think if a dm stepped up and said they would help, UD players would turn out. I would.

The points of stopping travel between surface and underdark is pointless now, people already have teleport points set up, so that's going to happen. Just is.

I do really believe the monsters and areas should be made more difficult for surface pcs, such as perpetual darkness in areas, and monsters with abilities that target spell resistance. My drow gets blindness on the surface and penalties for it, surfacers should incur a similar penalty for being underground, as well as more of that trip and fall comedy.

...oh, and yes, kos on surfacers below ground. Take us back to when travelling below ground felt more like the 'Descent' experience, than a trip to chocolate land.

Cross-realm is really just faction vs. faction - just like you have it with Alliance vs. Horde in World of Warcraft, and should be handled as what they are - faction vs. faction, or sides if you will. The only real problem to this is the vast difference in power, also known as vast level difference. However, with that being said, faction based rp has the potential to truly change the direction of the server story and rp-wise.

Alright I have avoided weighing in on this until now so here goes.

I think RP xp should be restored to everyone regardless of where they are.

I think monster kill xp and loot should be blocked on the other side.

I think a new rule should be created that if you lose PvP on the other side (including transition silliness) you should be sent back for a week.

I guess now comes a rebuttle and possibly hatred. Probably shouldn't have posted this :/

RP XP wasn't removed.

Velaris wrote:...oh, and yes, kos on surfacers below ground.

Surfacers are already KoS in Underdark areas - if they're recognized as surfacers. Check the rules.

Invoker wrote:

Israe wrote:Problem with UD is not what a lot state, it is lack of meaning. Dead end. So we create conflict with surfaces to create a plot.

Alternatively, such a dedicated, amazing RP group like the dedicated UDers could get a dedicated UD DM. The DM would create a metaplot for the UD, distribute the information across events dedicated to guilds and eventual special requests, and help the players manage the conflict that would naturally evolve as a consequence. It's been done before, with pretty good results.

The surface conflict would be "just another thing" a UD character could possibly do, if a strong RP angle presents itself.

End of the problem?

Personal opinion, not the opinion of the entire dm team, blah blah blah, you guys know the drill:

That's the problem though. "Dedicated ud dm". Taking up that means dming for all aspects of the ud. While ud in its variety isn't as diverse as the surface, the different concepts are vastly different. I personally have a big distaste for lolthite rp. It's simply something i don't enjoy, nor is it something I can take seriously. It's one of those things where the rp truly needs to go above and beyond in terms of quality in order to pique my interest.

Sshamath as a setting actually suits me great as a drow setting (the only thing better would be something like Cormanthor), but if I go down there and dm for bregan, or the vhaeraunites, or the eiliastreeans, or one of the schools, while a good portion of the ud is a lolthite house or two... I'll get labeled as ud dm, and suddenly I'm accused of showing favouritism and bias against a group of players, because I'm not dming for them.

Just encountered another classic situation. Me and some other UDers ambushed surfacers grinding in the Upperdark. Instead of using the RP out they started buffing themselves and said something like "We refuse to retreat we will fight". And after they were defeated we have let them be, and they just continued their grind like nothing happened, suffering absolutely no IC consequences. THIS is what ruins the RP, not the easy crossrealm travels. Instead they must have been permastricken, imprisoned, or at least forced to get back to the surface.

The only way to make the UD dangerous again is the UD players initiative imho. But it doesn't make any sense. You can scare/kill the surfacers as many times as you want, they will continue grinding giving no crap. With IC consequences though it would be a huge win for RP. XP/loot restrictions just ruining the situation as well.

KOPOJIbPAKOB wrote:Just encountered another classic situation. Me and some other UDers ambushed surfacers grinding in the Upperdark. Instead of using the RP out they started buffing themselves and said something like "We refuse to retreat we will fight". And after they were defeated we have let them be, and they just continued their grind like nothing happened, suffering absolutely no IC consequences. THIS is what ruins the RP, not the easy crossrealm travels. Instead they must have been permastricken, imprisoned, or at least forced to get back to the surface.

The only way to make the UD dangerous again is the UD players initiative imho. But it doesn't make any sense. You can scare/kill the surfacers as many times as you want, they will continue grinding giving no crap. With IC consequences though it would be a huge win for RP. XP/loot restrictions just ruining the situation as well.

I just want to point out that two of our guys forgot to set hostility since they were new to PVP. I understand that it's not an excuse, but on their defense it was a 6v6 so it was hard to know what is going on. Nevertheless, they were good sport about it or at least I think. I told those two guys what to do next time and hopefully it'll be a better RP.

EDIT: Odd quotes.

chambordini wrote:

KOPOJIbPAKOB wrote:Just encountered another classic situation. Me and some other UDers ambushed surfacers grinding in the Upperdark. Instead of using the RP out they started buffing themselves and said something like "We refuse to retreat we will fight". And after they were defeated we let them be, and they just continued their grind like nothing happened, suffering absolutely no IC consequences. THIS is what ruins the RP, not the easy crossrealm travels. Instead they must have been permastricken, imprisoned, or at least forced to get back to the surface.

So do you not think it'd be bad if a character had to be retired because they lost some random pvp encounter while they were grinding, if it happened 3 times?

As far as the other two options, that's entirely up to the victorious party and the RP they can pull off to entice the other group.

The encounter wasn't random, but even if it was - yes, it is more than enough to force the losing surfacer leave the Upperdark. How do you imagine it RP wise? "Well guys we just had our throats cut by drow assasins, but it is not the reason to retreat, lets kill some more dozens of ogres and loot chests! And then go to Kro's as well!". I'll repeat myself by saying this, but can you possibly imagine a drow that was grinding at the surface (!), got killed by a paladin, just stood up and continued his grind marathon?

chambordini wrote: So do you not think it'd be bad if a character had to be retired because they lost some random pvp encounter while they were grinding, if it happened 3 times?

As far as the other two options, that's entirely up to the victorious party and the RP they can pull off to entice the other group.

Not really, it would make sense, but the issue here is that it can be abused to permakill people due to OOC reasons.

Imprisonment could be better.

For example, pvp rules say:

- The victor decides if the victim is subdued or killed, but any actions done to the victim's body are done with the victim's clear consent. Keep any consequences tasteful and PG-13.

And

- Sometimes a PvP can end in the capture or kidnapping of the victim instead of death. In accordance with the topic covering DM Rulings, no character is to be held captive for longer than 72 hours (3 days) and any RP involved must be completed by then.
To end the RP, the captor can choose to facilitate the captive's escape, or to execute the captive. If there is no input from the captor by the end of the allotted time, the captive is considered to have escaped.

Basically, "king of crayfish" could probably try capturing the guys they've defeated.

KOPOJIbPAKOB wrote:The encounter wasn't random, but even if it was - yes, it is more than enough to force the losing surfacer leave the Upperdark. How do you imagine it RP wise? "Well guys we just had our throats cut by drow assasins, but it is not the reason to retreat, lets kill some more dozens of ogres and loot chests! And then go to Kro's as well!". I'll repeat myself by saying this, but can you possibly imagine a drow that was grinding at the surface (!), got killed by a paladin, just stood op and continued his grind marathon?

In the past there used to be a pvp setting where defeated would be sent home. Meaning Farmlands or FAI.

At some point it was removed.

... welp, bang up job at putting this thread on a one way ticket to Locksville folks.

By all means though, continue hashing your PvP issues out in what was a perfectly good thread. (And by that I mean: Dont)

I will do my best to keep this thread up. Please clean up your posts (or allow me to delete) or this will be locked.