Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

sweetlikesplenda wrote: then the requirement for me to come up with some IG reason why my guy suddenly cannot cast a spell that he could easily cast multiply times only a week or two earlier should not be some "test of my RP skills" and if I don't have a good reason, then I am a "weak RPer". Sorry if I misunderstood, but your remark struck me as condescending.

wasnt trying to be condescending, just challenging your points.

Xanfyrst wrote:Valefort, the grinding here is 1) boring, 2) a chore, and 3) unrewarding compared to the time spent doing so. As someone else mentions, the levelling to around 9-10 is the most fun part of levelling. After that the fun-factor goes down. You can spice it up with roleplaying, but at some point the chore of grinding will get to you. Unless you're one of those people who can shut their brain off and mindlessly grind. I used to be one back in the vanilla WoW days, but as I got older I found it a waste of time if it's no fun... even if I want to get to this and this level to unlock this and this ability.

Grinding is a gruelling, unfun, repetitive, unrewarding, brain-cell-killing task that creates black holes into which all RP is inevitably sucked into.

Adventuring, especially in DM events, is quite fun. Grinding is a miserable experience that some like to avoid or keep to a bare minimum in order to spend their time with more profitable activities like RP or something else in real life.

dont grind then. its not a RP requirement.

aaron22 wrote:dont grind then. its not a RP requirement.

Don't be a douche, it's not an RP requirement either.

I used the disguise tool name bug to rename a character, switched deity in Nexus, and the look of the armor. Now here is the question, is it enough to make it a new character, or is it still the same old one?

Xanfyrst wrote:

aaron22 wrote:dont grind then. its not a RP requirement.

Don't be a douche, it's not an RP requirement either.

Unless you role play a douche, in which case it is required that you conjure your inner d-bag and channel it ingame!

Joking aside, though, he does have a point. Grinding isn't necessary to engage in RP and you can enjoy a character without investing hours of time killing mobs.

Brother Bruce wrote:

Xanfyrst wrote:

aaron22 wrote:dont grind then. its not a RP requirement.

Don't be a douche, it's not an RP requirement either.

Unless you role play a douche, in which case it is required that you conjure your inner d-bag and channel it ingame!

Joking aside, though, he does have a point. Grinding isn't necessary to engage in RP and you can enjoy a character without investing hours of time killing mobs.

Of course, but the way he said it... it's like only his way is the right way.

True story, I would absolutely rather drink poison and lop off both my arms than endure BG's grind. It took me over a year to finally level up on Wren, and I just cannot bring myself to do any more on the two alts I actually play so they are perpetually at lvl 10 and 13 respectively.

So an RCR period would be an absolute delight- but after having to deal with "You're a what? But you were.... wait... what?" more than a few times (It's all well and good to say "avoid these people" but when you had prior involvement and suddenly something impossibru gets dumped in your lap, walking away is just bloody poor form), I get why there should be imposed limits on it.

Deathgrowl wrote:

NegInfinity wrote: Teris, by the way is epic level character.

Yes! And how much grinding has he done, do you think? That was my point here.

Your point is not good.

As far as I know, making Teris through RP could've taken the player years. Also, if Teris started at level 30 at day one, or if he got from 1 to 30 in one month it would make zero difference and wouldn't make him less Teris.

As for "how much grinding do you think" - I don't know. His character predates oldest of mine, and at the time I first met him he was already epic level.

cosmic ray wrote: Grinding is a gruelling, unfun, repetitive, unrewarding, brain-cell-killing task that creates black holes into which all RP is inevitably sucked into.

Adventuring, especially in DM events, is quite fun. Grinding is a miserable experience that some like to avoid or keep to a bare minimum in order to spend their time with more profitable activities like RP or something else in real life.

Speaking of which there are few gams that make grinding fun (Disagaea comes to mind), but bgtscc/nwn2 is not one of them.

Also, in the past there was a tradition of saturday dm events where DM would typically give out 1k or 2k xp to participants. Not sure why the tradition has died out. It used to be a saner alterantive to questing.

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Either way, it looks like main reason for requesting 100% RCR is area combat not being interesting and leveling process being painful. And main arguments AGAINST it is people rebuilding the same character into something completely different.

Those could be addressed by putting separate rules on fixing build mistakes, for example.

NegInfinity wrote:

Deathgrowl wrote:

NegInfinity wrote: Teris, by the way is epic level character.

Yes! And how much grinding has he done, do you think? That was my point here.

Your point is not good.

As far as I know, making Teris through RP could've taken the player years. Also, if Teris started at level 30 at day one, or if he got from 1 to 30 in one month it would make zero difference and wouldn't make him less Teris.

As for "how much grinding do you think" - I don't know. His character predates oldest of mine, and at the time I first met him he was already epic level.

And why is my point not good? You just state that without backing it up.

Yes, Teris is a fairly old character. And yes, his concept doesn't rely on his level. And as I pointed out to Xanfyrst earlier, that can be true for practically any character concept, as having a character concept rely on already aquired skills is a poor way to start a level 1 character. What I mean by this is the following:

Bad character concept: Being the best mage in the world.
Good character concept: Having a goal of becoming the best mage in the world.

Bad character concept: Being an accomplished assassin.
Good character concept: Having a goal of becoming an accomplished assassin.

If you pick the goals, you can RP the character from level 1. Grinding is never necessary, in other words. By level 5, you can also get to basically any of the places people RP without really having any issues with mobs along the way. What's wrong with asking other characters to band up for a journey anyways...

How about instead of making it easier for people to just jump in to epic levels we try and focus on making content that is fun at all levels so it doesnt feel like a grind?

Personally im against RCR in general. There really is no point to it unless you make a mistake or you are retiring a character. I would be more interested in seeing things like "reading books gives some XP/Lore skills" or "cooking a meal gives some RP XP"

The problem being of course that people are more concerned about "Hitting Epic to participate in things and not be outclassed by every epic" and therefore the minority of people who would abuse these kind of things with scripts and the like ruin it for everyone else.

Give people more options, punish those who abuse it. instead of simply saying "no because x might abuse it"

Deathgrowl wrote: And why is my point not good? You just state that without backing it up.

Uh, I backed it up in the next paragraphs.

Deathgrowl wrote: And yes, his concept doesn't rely on his level.

It does. Teris has multiple very powerful non-level 1 abilities, and he uses them routinely.

Deathgrowl wrote: Bad character concept: Being the best mage in the world.
Good character concept: Having a goal of becoming the best mage in the world.

Bad character concept: Being an accomplished assassin.
Good character concept: Having a goal of becoming an accomplished assassin.

No, I absolutely can't agree with this.

What you're doing here is insisting that everybody should follow "growth" rp, where people start from level 1. That's refusal to accept that other ways to play the game exists, and that there are other approaches to character concepts. Then you go ahead and mark anything that doesn't match your preference as "bad". Seriously? If you're a fan of "start from level 1", cool, but don't force your opinions onto others.

For example with your scheme, you can't be a ranger with a companion you picked up years ago. Because rangers get companions at level 4, and doing that will be a breach of play your sheet rule.

As already mentioned before, baldur's gate is a city with a harbor, and indeed a level 25 archmage can grace the city with their presence once in a while. Expecting everybody to start from level 1 is unreasonable.

Deathgrowl wrote: What's wrong with asking other characters to band up for a journey anyways...

Because they don't exist most of the time. Or because banding up with someone often involves waaaay too much OOC reasoning for comfort.

I pulled an UD non-drow char from level 1 to level 9 recently. Most of the experience was shooting things in the darkness alone. That's the usual bgtscc leveling experience regardless of your area.

NegInfinity wrote:

Deathgrowl wrote: Bad character concept: Being the best mage in the world.
Good character concept: Having a goal of becoming the best mage in the world.

Bad character concept: Being an accomplished assassin.
Good character concept: Having a goal of becoming an accomplished assassin.

No, I absolutely can't agree with this.

What you're doing here is insisting that everybody should follow "growth" rp, where people start from level 1. That's refusal to accept that other ways to play the game exists, and that there are other approaches to character concepts. Then you go ahead and mark anything that doesn't match your preference as "bad". Seriously? If you're a fan of "start from level 1", cool, but don't force your opinions onto others.

For example with your scheme, you can't be a ranger with a companion you picked up years ago. Because rangers get companions at level 4, and doing that will be a breach of play your sheet rule.

As already mentioned before, baldur's gate is a city with a harbor, and indeed a level 25 archmage can grace the city with their presence once in a while. Expecting everybody to start from level 1 is unreasonable.

I don't actually disagree with you here, but this wasn't what I meant. The idea is that you can RP from level 1. You can of course also RP from level 20, with the current RCR mechanics - and that can involve a more substantial background for how you got those abilities.

My entire point in this is that if you RCR an old level 14 fighter into a new character that you want to be a rogue/assassin with, you'll end up at level 12 and thus not have HiPS. Deciding that your entire character concept relies on having HiPS from the start is then a bad design. You can start to RP the character without that trait with a very slight change in your concept: The character has been practicing stealth for some time and is pushing him/herself hard to master the pinnacle of stealth techniques. Rather than having already learned it.

You don't have to grind. You never have to grind.

Eliphas would never have been the character he was if I didn't start him at 20 (RCR of my old zhentarim mage).

He was a Favoured Soul of Bane and been alive for a century when he took over from the old Z-leader. Being a Banite leader takes strength. Imagine a level 1 Eliphas getting his butt handed to him by a kobold. Think his men would follow such a weakling? Not to mention being the top dog of the Banite faction requires power to put those under you in line.

My point is that certain concept's require certain levels, abilities and skill levels to work. There's also nothing wrong with this way of creating characters, just as there's nothing wrong with starting off as a youngster with zero skill and lots of ambition or whatever idea you have in mind.

Deathgrowl wrote: I don't actually disagree with you here, but this wasn't what I meant. The idea is that you can RP from level 1. You can of course also RP from level 20, with the current RCR mechanics - and that can involve a more substantial background for how you got those abilities.

My entire point in this is that if you RCR an old level 14 fighter into a new character that you want to be a rogue/assassin with, you'll end up at level 12 and thus not have HiPS. Deciding that your entire character concept relies on having HiPS from the start is then a bad design. You can start to RP the character without that trait with a very slight change in your concept: The character has been practicing stealth for some time and is pushing him/herself hard to master the pinnacle of stealth techniques. Rather than having already learned it.

You don't have to grind. You never have to grind.

(-_-)

No, I honestly don't see what you're trying to get at here.

"You don't have to grind" can also be turned into "You don't have to play". "Want an ability that is not available at your level and no time to grind xp? Stop playing and go outside instead!".

Speaking of sneaks and hips, mechanically there are maybe 3 maps total, where corner sneak without hips can utilize their abilities to the fullest. Those are hilltop ruins first level, minotaur labyrinth and gnoll caves first level. Most of the time the character will be alone, and journey will be quite tedious till the character finally gets HiPS ability, especially because the fairly expensive sneak gear has reduced armor class.

It is not a bad design either. It is just the ability is critical for the concept, and at the point of getting the ability, the concept is finally complete, while at the point prior to this, it isn't.

It is worth mentioning that "someone who pursues stealth" and "someone who has learned it" are likely to be very different characters.

Same applies to differences between: "Ranger with a companion" and "ranger without a companion". Or "A dragon druid, a druid that can wildshape, and a druid that can't wildshape". Or "a level 1 fighter, a weapon master, a frezerker, and a weapon master frezerker".

Those are major mechanical differences that are reflected in the character. Switching from "I have it" to "I want to have it", is a big change in the character. You'll get a radically different character, and not a slight adjustment.