Coming Soon: Discussion Thread (2020)

[Snarfy]

What about the party of level 7-8 PCs that are in the Lions Way Gnoll dungeon struggling through and are robbed of the experience by the level 30 that just wanted to open chests, but since they are just trying to open as many chests as possible as quickly as possible they kill all the bosses in front of the group?

Before the changes, taking my various level 30's through orc caves, gnoll caves, and troll caves(for more ka-ching than I get doing CR appropriate areas) was kind of my go-to loot ritual, and I cant think of the last time I encountered this(I tended to lag behind lower levels, or wait until they'd passed me and killed the bosses).

here's a quick list I made with what you might expect @ Level 30

This list of about 30 areas seems right; those should all still provide loot to a level 30 PC, although it's important to remember that you will get much better items if you loot areas closer to CR30.

Seems that way, I just ran two dungeons quick:

Nashkel mines (19) : 8 chests, 1 box looted, fire devil boss = 6 items + gold for about 5k gp.
Lizard caves (23): 3 chests, 1 skeleton, 1 box, lizard chief boss = 10 items and gold for about 10k gp.

Going above that in CR, however, it gets pretty thin for (... and I know you don't want to hear this) solo play. Frost giant castle is about the only place I can think of on that list where I probably wouldn't die horribly on most of my level 30 characters. The reason I mention solo play so much is because this is a real thing:

How many parties of 4-5 are people finding that A) have time to play together, B) are of appropriate CR, C) Appropriate RP, and D) want to play the game at the same pace (between running a dungeon and walking a dungeon, ooc vs ic)?

... if we're going to cater to everyone, the soloist, loner pariahs should not be forgotten! Grouping sucks.

[gedweyignasia]

Hopefully the fact that grouping up lets you all fulfill your financial needs in far less time will mean it's easier to group up in the future. We'll see how this changes things. It might take some time for players to adjust instead of attempting to repeat their old routine.

[Hoihe]

Hopefully the fact that grouping up lets you all fulfill your financial needs in far less time will mean it's easier to group up in the future. We'll see how this changes things. It might take some time for players to adjust instead of attempting to repeat their old routine.

I still don't see why grouping is so stressed when we already got cases of paladins partying with undead-touting necromancers. Druids of Silvanus casually killing xvarts beside someone with a bunch of vampires. These are just the most obvious, overt cases and we're not talking about clerics of Talso hanging out with Seldarine elves as if best buddies. You know, the same Talos who is so obsessed with destroying elves that he has attacked elves before with a giant demon. All this does is make such head scratching behaviours more common.

At level 29, most characters I run into who I could recruit to go adventuring tend to be banites, talassans, garagossans, sharrans or suspiciously friendly with banites, banites, talassans, garagossans, sharrans. There's no way in the world my character willingly shares the same room as those characters, much less puts her life in their hands.

Then the characters who remain might do dungeons by no-RP dashing through them. I'm not one sliver interested in partying with such and have left parties over it before.

Then the left-over at my level are... characters who are RP and style compatible who play in a completely different timezone, are not interested in dungeoneering at all.

The most likely set up I'd get is a level 29 swash13/du8/w5/sd3 + an elven 29 AT/DSM/wiz, and last time we went dungoeneering, it was less than enjoyable at our CR. Maybe I can add a rogue to that list, depending on when I am on, but that's highly variable and I prefer to RP with said rogue over dungeoneering with. Likewise for the AT/DSM.

[Zanniej]

Hopefully the fact that grouping up lets you all fulfill your financial needs in far less time will mean it's easier to group up in the future. We'll see how this changes things. It might take some time for players to adjust instead of attempting to repeat their old routine.

I still don't see why grouping is so stressed when we already got cases of paladins partying with undead-touting necromancers. Druids of Silvanus casually killing xvarts beside someone with a bunch of vampires. These are just the most obvious, overt cases and we're not talking about clerics of Talso hanging out with Seldarine elves as if best buddies. You know, the same Talos who is so obsessed with destroying elves that he has attacked elves before with a giant demon. All this does is make such head scratching behaviours more common.

At level 29, most characters I run into who I could recruit to go adventuring tend to be banites, talassans, garagossans, sharrans or suspiciously friendly with banites, banites, talassans, garagossans, sharrans. There's no way in the world my character willingly shares the same room as those characters, much less puts her life in their hands.

Then the characters who remain might do dungeons by no-RP dashing through them. I'm not one sliver interested in partying with such and have left parties over it before.

Then the left-over at my level are... characters who are RP and style compatible who play in a completely different timezone, are not interested in dungeoneering at all.

The most likely set up I'd get is a level 29 swash13/du8/w5/sd3 + an elven 29 AT/DSM/wiz, and last time we went dungoeneering, it was less than enjoyable at our CR. Maybe I can add a rogue to that list, depending on when I am on, but that's highly variable and I prefer to RP with said rogue over dungeoneering with. Likewise for the AT/DSM.

Then what would you suggest as a solution?

[gedweyignasia]

I still don't see why grouping is so stressed when we already got cases of paladins partying with undead-touting necromancers. Druids of Silvanus casually killing xvarts beside someone with a bunch of vampires.

Hopefully if more people are grouping up, it will be easier to find an RP-appropriate group. Area builders are trying to create environments for you to RP in, and it's a lot of work wasted if you're there alone.

[Winterborne]

I like the change.

However, I think that, even if you put RP aside as a concern (which you shouldn't), and even if you put playstyle preference aside as a concern (ditto). . .

. . . the active population on the server means that a lot of players are going to solo or be in small groups. It's just simple numbers, here - with only maybe 30-40 people online at peak, spread across various alignments, locations and level ranges, it means that outside of a guild, the commonality of a 6 person low or mid level group is simply not that high.

My suggested solution is to rebalance the CR of most areas, if it's still going to be a number based on a GROUP, to account mostly for groups of 2-3 people, rather than a party of 6. This better keeps in mind players who are perhaps group averse and would at minimum give them a better idea of what to expect from loot.

An example: Let's say there is an area that is CR24 but considered hard or risk/reward averse in such a manner that most won't go there solo, and even a group of 2 might have issues. This area should IMO be considered CR 30. This should be done across the board IMO, the example in the thread given was "A group of 2 might have trouble with the gnoll cave but a group of 6 won't." and well, a group of 2 is much more likely to form spontaneously than not.

Regular groups happen pretty often, and people form up into groups often even with strangers, but I think that with a lower server population that grouping should be encouraged in other ways somehow because the reality is that a FULL group is going to be a rarity outside of guild situations for the most part. If there could be additional spawns (of creatures OR loot) based on number of people in an area, such that if you went in a group there was more to find but you weren't hamstrung going alone, that would be sweet. Can the chest script spawn lootable corpses in the same way it spawns chests? Instead of taking away, make the yields noticeably higher for the higher end content that requires a group to encourage it that way.

I recognize this might be somewhat of an exploitable issue if a bunch of soloers went to an area together and caused it to spawn more stuff but if you're going to put that much thought into it why not just group up to begin with?

Also, the difference IMO between a high level chest and a lower level chest should be significant enough that even if I get bad luck, it's STILL a much better yield than the low level one. The system has so much overlap it seems, that people often don't know with certainty whether the chest they looted is of appropriate level or not. "Did I get 30 gold and a spoon because of bad luck or because this is a chest that's 18 CR below my level?"

This is a problem.

You might say "Oh well gold's already too easy to come by we dont want to make it even easier" to which I say "Who cares?". Let people get gold, let people be able to use consumables without feeling obligated to farm, let people save up in shorter order for those shop items they want. The very best items, people won't take gold for anyway. Consumables are ludicrous in price, especially if you get into player crafted potions, to the point nobody bothers with them except for a specific subset of spells.

[Planehopper]

At the same time, as players, we are all trying to tell immersive stories. It, too, is wasted work when we are partied with disparate archetypes, forgoing RP for perceived mechanical conveniences/necessities.

I know time and effort when into this, and all the discussion and reasoning isn't going to change it now, but this change (for some) is a clear shift toward raid style mechanical focus over RP. It puts a focus on either increasing personal power, or making exceptions to whom is a reasonable match with your character's story to experience the content.

I would even say that this change would be good, if areas were available for weaker builds, if partying based on RP was easier and more common, and if the windows were variable as levels increased.

For a game with shrinking population, however, shifting dynamics toward partying and/or mechanical power seems like a big shift.

[gedweyignasia]

My suggested solution is to rebalance the CR of most areas, if it's still going to be a number based on a GROUP, to account mostly for groups of 2-3 people, rather than a party of 6. This better keeps in mind players who are perhaps group averse and would at minimum give them a better idea of what to expect from loot.

This is why you still get loot and XP even if you're several levels below your CR. The idea is that if you are in a bigger group, the rewards will be bigger, but it is absolutely not necessary in order to get enough XP and gold.

Partying is a way to expand your RP circle and meet new people. Seeing those people in tense situations should allow players to develop their characters outside of just "campfire" RP. The loop of players RPing at the campfire, solo grinding, selling, and RPing at the campfire tends to create more closed-off RP circles, whereas grouping up for an adventure brings new folks into the fold.

[Snarfy]

This is why you still get loot and XP even if you're several levels below your CR. The idea is that if you are in a bigger group, the rewards will be bigger, but it is absolutely not necessary in order to get enough XP and gold.

I get that it's not necessary to group to find XP and gold, BUT... depending on your level, grouping will absolutely be necessary if you do not want to be restricted in the number of places you can visit to find treasure.

Literally all of the characters I play regularly went from being able to find items(that are not gold) in any chest in any of 100+ areas(which is more realistic, even if it's junk), to now only being able to find items in 10 to 15 areas(most of which I do not have a single valid RP reason to visit).

IE. Searching the orc caves for books and gems on my elf wizard... it was convenient, it made sense ICly to go there, and it's a high traffic area to potentially encounter other players. Now, in order to add books/gems to his collection, his only options are to go to more dangerous and less populated areas/dungeons that are further away, and many of which might require him finding a group of randoms to survive in.

This is where some people are going to get stuck, because, if they're like me, they wont be able to get past this:

However, I think that, even if you put RP aside as a concern (which you shouldn't), and even if you put playstyle preference aside as a concern (ditto). . .

[Hoihe]

My suggested solution is to rebalance the CR of most areas, if it's still going to be a number based on a GROUP, to account mostly for groups of 2-3 people, rather than a party of 6. This better keeps in mind players who are perhaps group averse and would at minimum give them a better idea of what to expect from loot.

This is why you still get loot and XP even if you're several levels below your CR. The idea is that if you are in a bigger group, the rewards will be bigger, but it is absolutely not necessary in order to get enough XP and gold.

Partying is a way to expand your RP circle and meet new people. Seeing those people in tense situations should allow players to develop their characters outside of just "campfire" RP. The loop of players RPing at the campfire, solo grinding, selling, and RPing at the campfire tends to create more closed-off RP circles, whereas grouping up for an adventure brings new folks into the fold.

The reason we have closed off RP circles is:

At the same time, as players, we are all trying to tell immersive stories. It, too, is wasted work when we are partied with disparate archetypes, forgoing RP for perceived mechanical conveniences/necessities.

I know time and effort when into this, and all the discussion and reasoning isn't going to change it now, but this change (for some) is a clear shift toward raid style mechanical focus over RP. It puts a focus on either increasing personal power, or making exceptions to whom is a reasonable match with your character's story to experience the content.

I would even say that this change would be good, if areas were available for weaker builds, if partying based on RP was easier and more common, and if the windows were variable as levels increased.

For a game with shrinking population, however, shifting dynamics toward partying and/or mechanical power seems like a big shift.

I like the change.

However, I think that, even if you put RP aside as a concern (which you shouldn't), and even if you put playstyle preference aside as a concern (ditto). . .

. . . the active population on the server means that a lot of players are going to solo or be in small groups. It's just simple numbers, here - with only maybe 30-40 people online at peak, spread across various alignments, locations and level ranges, it means that outside of a guild, the commonality of a 6 person low or mid level group is simply not that high.

Should we punish characters who stay true to their faith and alignment and strongly oppose those their gods are at literal war with? Should we punish players for only partying with characters who are either of the same faith, or of allied faiths and trust-worthy neutrals? Should we punish players for RPing their characters as having a healthy sense of danger, are afraid of death and thus will not travel with a group of strangers who refuse to share their religious allegiance?

Last time my elven character tried to party with a group who didn't share who they worshipped beyond a neutral helmite, she ended up being surrounded by blood magi using blood-seeking spell and a talassan divine caster. Reminder: elves and Talos are at war, and elven history is filled with Talassans trying to destroy and kill off elven communities. At earliest convenience to split off from the group without risking confrontation, I teleported away as my character values her life.

Another time she ran into a masked man with ability to hide in the shadows who refused to remove his mask or present his faith or allegiance while travelling in a region close to hubs that my character ICly knows to harbour worshippers of the Dark Three. She used a scroll of ethereal jaunt after she failed to get confirmation on whether the stranger was going to stab her in the back or not and teleported to safety.

Should I break character just to be able to do appropriate content? Isn't a lot of people complaining that "characters don't fear death"?

What Nathan said could be the solution, base CR around a party of 3. I'm in 3 active guilds presently - one of them my character doesn't trust due to religious clash, the remaining two leave me with 1-2 characters together during the timezone I play. There's more characters in both, but they're spread out across the time zones. Characters outside of those guilds whose faith/allegiance is trust-worthy/allied tend to be level 10-15 which is useless for forming a party to go to say, Vault of the Dead. Seriously, where are all the good aligned lvl 25+ characters?

[Steve]

It is obvious that the way to entice more Players to form Groups and nudge the Server towards group-play over solo play is to make rewards significantly greater FROM group play.

Thus, if a group adventures together (2-3, 4-5, 6-7 members in the party...) in any Area, the loot rewards will be significantly and NOTICEBLY better for all in the Group.

If a Character solos the same Area, the loot will be decent for their appropriate CR—or maybe should be “fair,”...but what is fair, right?—but significantly or noticeably LESS quality than if grouped, this will drive loot-focused Players to join up for greater returns.

But what some are saying, is essentially, don’t reduce what solo play can provide (and if is hasn’t been, than great...but I think many are thinking it has, that group play imitative also means solo play prohibitive).

So some clarity in that would be appropriate to offer now.

Lastly, what is important to realize is that group/party play nudging and improving, will absolutely NOT increase Role-play.

This game is terrible for adventuring, mob slaying, chatting as you go along type play. The NWN2 mechanics suck for this—typing while targeting is as lame as it can get, on NWN2. If we had Voice Chat enabled on the Server like many other collaborative team play games, it would be a ridiculous boon to RP (like at a round table on a PnP session, but with CPRG graphics jnstead of miniatures!!).

Personally, I’m looking forward to the part of the changes where I as a player should see greater loot returns by adventuring in CR appropriate Areas...SOLO OR GROUPED THOUGH!!!

This is what I had though was the impetus for this change, to get high level PCs out of low level Areas, who where just loot grinding and not offering RP TOWARDS the low level PCs that can ONLY be in those appropriate Areas.

But, if more Group Play adventuring is the method desired, then I can only suggest you make the Areas much more easy to “win,” add a few that are near impossible to win, and when the Server offers both more ease to adventure AND some greater challenges, both sides of the player base will feel supported and have more fun.

Because what seems to be the case is half the server population logs on to win items through mob-slaying, and half logs on for chat based avatar interaction. The Server will likely lose a significant number of Players if you make solo adventuring less lucrative, than it was before the rebalance.

So, is that the case, that solo adventuring for loot is less lucrative than before, or, is it the same or better if one solos in a level appropriate CR Area?

[Oarthias]

While I can understand not always earning epic gear for the higher areas, if we could remove the 0 -8 gold worth items and the basic non magical gear completely from those areas it would be appreciated. That right there will encourage people to go to the correct areas more than anything to be honest. Nothing is more frustrating than using consumables and then finding a spoon and a padded armor. Yes, I usually travel with people that can buff me so I don't have to use as much as I would soloing, but we all still usually have to use some type of consumables.

I RP while I do the dungeons... unless I'm just doing a quick run to kill time during the lesser populated hours. I've met all sorts of new chars and players as Vani goes through her question game. Sometimes she'll even steer them towards a guild that she feels they would fit into. She'll leave idiots behind that just rush about, are way too much drama to deal with, spring traps while she is disarming them, as well as those that summon undead or demons. The larger groups are harder to do the RP with as everyone goes in different directions to take care of the spawns, specially in some of the quicker respawn maps. Please don't require large groups for the dungeons for decent loot drops. I like my casual patrolling groups of 2- 4 people otherwise it just become a mindless run.

I love the randomized chest locations. However, the ones in the yaun-ti that required keys... the chests are no longer there and I haven't run into any chests that require those keys... so you might want to either leave those chests there in those two locations or just remove those two keys from the drop.

[Snarfy]

So, is that the case, that solo adventuring for loot is less lucrative than before, or, is it the same or better if one solos in a level appropriate CR Area?

I wouldn't say it's more or less lucrative. To give you an idea:

Seems that way, I just ran two dungeons quick:

Nashkel mines (19) : 8 chests, 1 box looted, fire devil boss = 6 items + gold for about 5k gp.
Lizard caves (23): 3 chests, 1 skeleton, 1 box, lizard chief boss = 10 items and gold for about 10k gp.

Had I run the Frost giant keep, I probably would have added another 8 to 10k on top of that.

3 dungeons netting 25k is decent and about on par with what I might have expected doing orc, gnoll, and troll caves under the previous system. But here's where the differences come into play: I was on my sneak, and therefore able to bypass large groups of monsters that would have fugue'd me. Had I been on my wizard, I certainly would have had to rely on a summon(and even then, running into clusters of giants gets dicey). Had I been on my ranger, I would have been pounding consumables once I got indoors... but that's just the thing, I probably wouldn't have visited any of these places solo while on my wizard or ranger. It's far less intensive to take a slow stroll through a mid-tier dungeon, while giving my dusty tome summon some exercise(as opposed to it getting annihilated), and simply go at my own pace and enjoy the dungeon(as opposed to probably frantically fighting for my life, if none of my pals were on to group with).

I would like to point out that, sometimes, going to dungeons isn't just about finding ub3r ep1c lootz. Some players do enjoy dungeons for the atmosphere(like mausoleum) as much as finding a few trinkets... but when you're guaranteed not to find even a spoon just because you're level X, I would say that detracts from the overall experience. Having the CR of a low/mid tier dungeon crank up and make things more difficult for lower level characters is de-incentivizing enough without the added mundanity of being guaranteed of finding zero items.

While I can understand not always earning epic gear for the higher areas, if we could remove the 0 -8 gold worth items and the basic non magical gear completely from those areas it would be appreciated.

Feel free to ship those(as well as books/gems/oddities) off to the low/mid tier dungeons! I'm fine with finding anything other than 20-something gold when I'm bored and in the mood for a laid back dungeon crawl

[Valefort]

There is quite a lot of variance so I suggest to keep on looting and send your feedback over a long period of time rather than a single session, which doesn't amount to much. We'll probably tweak the system further anyway, unless we unexpectedly nailed it right enough on the first try.

[Oarthias]

While I can understand not always earning epic gear for the higher areas, if we could remove the 0 -8 gold worth items and the basic non magical gear completely from those areas it would be appreciated.

Feel free to ship those(as well as books/gems/oddities) off to the low/mid tier dungeons! I'm fine with finding anything other than 20-something gold when I'm bored and in the mood for a laid back dungeon crawl

Indeed. Keep the lower worth gems in that pool too Vani is going to go into a gem depression because she can't find them to horde anymore. *Sniffles* Right now the only ones she's gotten are gifts from friends.

I'll likely still take Vani through the areas she has always patrolled because frankly I want the variety of not going to the same few places. Also for what ever reason, I'm still pulling double the gold that everyone (my level) else is pulling from these lower area chests. Search or rogue levels might be factored into this? or I just have better luck of pulling 50-60 while they get 20-27?