Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

Richard wrote: ↑Sat May 02, 2020 8:05 pm Snarfy, most of what I'm reading from your posts is- in my opinion- not any semblance of civil debate or discussion. It seems overall more like sneering derision of opinions different from yours, and what little constructive suggestion/criticism might be gleaned from your posts are unfortunately buried under an uncomfortable amount of ego. Your posts are in large part the other reason I haven't posted much at all since the start of the thread

On the contrary, I've seen Snarfy be the only individual who actually posted anything resembling evidence this entire thread, posting videos, providing insight as a player who's experienced a multitude of stealth characters, and taking issue (perhaps strongly) with some of the baseless assumptions being made by other players.

Further, instead of posting your own evidence, or taking place in the argument, you lit a fuse on a very obviously sensitive topic to see what happened, then came in after seven pages to insult him back. So there's that.

Regardless, though, I can offer that playing from 1-30 on a melee HIPS character, Snarfy raises many, many good points. I have practically no survivability on my own in CL areas appropriate for my level, and I know a multitude of characters that can shut me down in PvP. Then again, I may just be bad at it, but there you go: if the dumbest person can't press HIPS and win, then it isn't an "I win" button. I've had to piggyback with groups to be effective in combat, and even then my AC makes me a rich target for a mob to switch targets and knock me out with a well placed crit.

If any change is to be made, I'd argue that the best way to make HIPS more of a feature of the classes intended for it, and less of a mechanical dip benefit, is to do what others have suggested and raise the level requirement on Shadowdancer. Messing with the mechanic itself seems to be a less than ideal solution, as it would have a widespread affect on literally any PC that has it, rather than the selective few who are using a mechanical dip to take advantage of it.

If anyone ever just once uses HiPS in combat, it IS then a mechanical advantage. Regardless of the RP behind it, it is always chosen because of how it works.

If that wasn’t the case, players would choose HiTS or propose to remove HiPS entirely for HiTS replacement across the board. Or, you’d just use normal Hide, that isn’t instant, that isn’t a mechanical leverage to “special invisible powers.”

Granted, the NWN2 engine and the game design also puts Hiding and Moving Silently into jeopardy, like as example, having the Scent Feat and setting a foe Hostile.

So yes, conscious and subtle changes need to be made along parallel lines I order to make HiPS a more balance Feat. Saying it is impossible is disingenuous. Saying it is complicated and not worth the effort is fair.

And the ONLY person(s) who can really speak to the issue are a Dev willing to do the work, a QC to do the testing, and the Admins to give the go ahead to implementation.

One could just as easily propose to remove Mirror Images because they are broken and alongside Displacement even moreso.
Or how about Energy Immunity, that is broken.
how about Warlocks? ConLock could solo the WD (if said conlock can do enough damage before WD despawns)... Can literally have enough HP and protections to simply outlast anything.
Bards and Paladins have been proven to be capable of soloing the balor with nothing except for a Longsword.

I still have yet to see what makes HiPS builds (melee or archer) stronger than any of the above. Again, unless we are talking about Mages that dip SD for HiPS.

Shall we start a thread to remove each of the above and piss off like...everyone?

Steve wrote: ↑Sun May 03, 2020 6:28 am
So yes, conscious and subtle changes need to be made along parallel lines I order to make HiPS a more balance Feat. Saying it is impossible is disingenuous. Saying it is complicated and not worth the effort is fair.

Whilst I am assuming that for the most part that the people against HiPs have had some PvP encounter they lost or just about lost to be the cause for this, I thought that particular point was something I wanted to correct. I did, after all, leave a bit of bait to see if anyone would respond about just not liking the cheesy stealth mechanics of actual STEALTH vs the the ability to Shadowdance - which is how HiPs was originally (and best) pitched in NWN1/DnD. It appears however, people are just not happy with the 'special invisibility' (which it kinda is, and certainly definitely is with say Phantom). I won't remark on the apparent disdain for the term, but I will say its undeserved as there's nothing wrong with having a magical ability to manipulate shadows and disappear into them. Its a common trope and no more cheesy than anything a gish/mage/healer/weapon master/ninja/banjomancer (I've waiting so long to use that again!) can do:

"Need" is the wrong word from where I sit - HiPs does not 'need' to be further changed from the limitations already placed, but some appear to want it - the argument being that it is unbalanced. The two are not interchangeable though I get that its probably a nitpick - I still think it is important to bear in mind.

I don't think anyone said "impossible" at any point (they are obviously wrong if so), but rather that the changes being proposed would not balance HiPS, just gimp everyone using it and have limited effect on Builds that supplement with HiPs rather than rely. Therefore, what you get is slightly nerfed PvP encounters where you likely wanted to see an easier time - and a whole lot of nerfed builds that were never really an unbalanced threat (in the opinion of myself and several others).

"Complicated and not worth the effort" is obviously a fair reason not to do something I agree - but so are the arguments made against the change and that it is not actually a 'broken feat'. So are the arguments for changing it to be honest though I feel they are more frustration-based rather on balanced consideration of evidence. But if it comes down to what people want and why.. at least for me it is clear that I would rather people put the effort into countering stealth when an RP reason comes up that warrants such a concern - my character does? He has had two assassination attempts on him and multiple cases of being spied on. I do not want to see one of the key feats to stealth combat in NWN2 getting nerfed without a really good reason and I actually do not SEE one being given. I see people arguing down to stats why it is not broken.. but I cannot recall why it is allegedly broken? Because we can disengage and avoid single-target attacks and spells I think was the reason - but then we still have to risk getting in for another flurry unless we are archers. If your character is not built with high AC, or has AoE attacks (or whirlwind), and cannot use the myriad of effective items to counter.. that should not be the 'fault' of your average HiPSter but rather an inherent weakness of your character to try and remedy - and those exist so...

Again, to whoever mentioned ranged + HiPS, if its a build with massive AB like an AA which you do not like.. go nerf that build and leave us innocent Hippies alone xD.

I agree with chad - if you nerf it, 'balance' calls that a lot of caster ''win buttons' and buffs get serious revisions as well to make them easier to kill and less viable on their own without constant support. That way we can kill them fully buffed with the right rolls and moves 'no problem'. Honestly - as nice as it would be to have a perfectly rounded, multi-player focused game where an intricate rock-paper-scissors can be relied upon - or where everyone has an equal shot determined by skill. That is not ever really going to happen here. We can try - but lets not pretend one feat at a time is going to ever really achieve that.

Nerfs should be reserved for truly broken, game-play damaging experiences, and I think we ll agree they should be taken seriously. That is why Snarfy and others are so passionate because (im in this group), understandably I hope, we're facing a lot of unpleasant changes to our experience when as players of the style we're keenly aware of the many vulnerabilities.

It does not seem fair to hurt the feat but I stand by previous comments that I'd try it if devs actually sided against before RCR'ing - but if you feel its being abused by non-stealth builds (to find ways to 'cheese') then attention should fall on the requirements to get HiPS, not the mechanics of what IS a supernatural power to literally "Hide in Plain Sight". It's literally in the name. You see him.. then s/he's literally gone and you are left actively trying to get eyes on again.

Oh c’mon Chad! How many red herrings did you fish this weekend?!?

I know what and how Hide in Plain Sight is supposed to work. Problem is, it does so much more, because of the limited implementation in the NWN2 engine.

If you think I’m talking out my ass, I’ve leveled quite a few HiPSters to epic levels, and all of them where kicking ass in PvE and PvP because of how powerful HiPS can be. My HiPS characters maybe couldn’t solo the 50% of the Server, but where it could shine, it was untouchable, and EXACTLY so because HiPS is overpowered in a number of aspects.

And yes, balancing out HiPS WOULD “penalize” those players who have grown accustomed to relying on its broken winningness.

It’s fine if anyone doesn’t agree with me. I’m just saying don’t use red herrings or anecdotal evidence to in a debate. And again, our perspectives on the issue are not going anywhere unless someone with actual powers to change the situation steps in.

Steve wrote: ↑Sun May 03, 2020 8:12 am Oh c’mon Chad! How many red herrings did you fish this weekend?!?

Hi pot, I'm kettle

Steve wrote: ↑Sun May 03, 2020 8:12 am I know what and how Hide in Plain Sight is supposed to work. Problem is, it does so much more, because of the limited implementation in the NWN2 engine.

Is the implication that I do not?

Steve wrote: ↑Sun May 03, 2020 8:12 am My HiPS characters maybe couldn’t solo the 50% of the Server, but where it could shine, it was untouchable, and EXACTLY so because HiPS is overpowered in a number of aspects.

I have a HiPS character that was able to solo everything, except the white dragon...what is your point? There are like 20 builds I can think of which can do the same far easier with far less risk.

Steve wrote: ↑Sun May 03, 2020 8:12 am And yes, balancing out HiPS WOULD “penalize” those players who have grown accustomed to relying on its broken winningness.

Another way to look at it is it would penalize those players that rely on its "broken winningness" because of other mechanics broken losingness (such as flanking not always proccing sneak attacks for example).

I'm going to say something to everyone that should be in your minds whenever discussing things like this. The likelihood of any change taking place is very much based upon impacts to relevant builds in PvE because at the end of the day that is what BGtSCC is about. Expose Weakness was left alone until what, 2 years ago or so? Why? Because Valefort finally figured out a way to make it NOT break stealth (by making it a mode rather than activated ability). If a developer could make HiPS work exactly as it does today, but make it so it didn't break target lock if you failed to pass the hide/move silently against spot/listen check they'd absolutely fix that. However, I see no way that any developer, qc (if they still exist) or admin would ever change the timer or otherwise nerf HiPS other than target lock. And if changing it would negatively impact Rogue builds (likely using a simple R21/A9 as the sample) then they simply won't do it. It is one thing to nerf Fighter/Weapon Master/Frenzied Bersker/SD dips with minimimum investment in hide/move silently. Quite another to impact actual sneaks. It won't happen.

As I said previously in this thread and responded in a PM with specifics. There are plenty of tactics which can be utilized against HiPS with no changes required. There are also plenty of things more horribly broken or as broken as HiPS. So why focus on that? Why not on ki step/shadow step/otherworldly leap/dimension door?

I have a HiPS character that was able to solo everything, except the white dragon...what is your point?

You just made it!

If HiPS is fine the way it is, or the way it can be because of literal inability to make it better in ALL instances, that’s fine by me. It allows me to mechanically game the Server without breaking any Rules, and, I can still use it for RP (again, giving my Character a giant edge). That said, I for one would be willing to “give up” it’s awesome, current incarnation that I can abuse with impunity, in order to make for an overall fairer an actual game experience.

Cheers for the debate fellas!

Steve wrote: ↑Sun May 03, 2020 8:44 amYou just did!

Did you fail to read literally the next sentence? context bruh.

Steve wrote: ↑Sun May 03, 2020 8:44 am If HiPS is fine the way it is, or the way it can be because of literal inability to make it better in ALL instances, that’s fine by me. It allows me to mechanically game the Server without breaking any Rules, and, I can still use it for RP (again, giving my Character a giant edge). That said, I for one would be willing to “give up” it’s awesome, current incarnation that I can abuse with impunity, in order to make for an overall fairer an actual game experience.

As I said, so does Dimension Door and any of the class abilities that mirror DD functionality. *shrug* As I have said before to you Steve, just friendly fun on my part, you know me well enough to know my posts really are not meant to be hostile so much as (hopefully seen as good natured) poking. However, the reason for me having my fun is the fact that folks focus on one mechanic as OP while there are multiple mechanics that are OP for the same or similar reasons... It stinks of someone losing PvP and being upset about it, which is a poor reason to make a change when a better approach would be to think about it, learn from it, and be prepared with new tactics the next time you run in to it because there are counters.

By the way OP did have 1 good point:

mob saves are inflated.

Went to troll claws in a party of 2 - 1 dex fighter/tank with magic for flavor and 1 dps mage using dsm/at + reserve spells while capping out int.

We got surrounded by ogres - you know: big dumb brute barbarians yeah? Cr 18 area so ogres are around lvl 18 barbarians - a class with Low will/reflex saves and high fort.

To manage the battlefield we tried to attack the weakness of ogres - them being dumb brute barbarians with low will progression.

We learnt they got 16 will save.

The level 21 wiz/rogue/At/dsm had 18 will save after greater resist. She has 26 int.
The level 21 swb8/du7/wiz3/sd3 had 9 will save at 21 with no buffs.

both of us have 10 wis.


But the ogre barbarian had higher will save than the party wizard and almost twice the will save of the party tank.


None of our will save spells (shadow daze, shadow spray, mass hold monster) did anything.

Mage went invis and I hipsed away to repositon with fewer ogres so we didnt die. But the fact that friggin ogres got more will saves18 levels of low will save compared to a wizard with 18 levels of high 3 levels of low is ridiculous.

chad878262 wrote: ↑Sun May 03, 2020 8:51 am context bruh...
...the fact that folks focus on one mechanic as OP while there are multiple mechanics that are OP for the same or similar reasons...

Can’t argue with you there, chad6666666666. There’s lots of work to do!

And I do not take any arguments personally!

Hoihe wrote: ↑Sun May 03, 2020 9:06 am By the way OP did have 1 good point:

mob saves are inflated.

Went to troll claws in a party of 2 - 1 dex fighter/tank with magic for flavor and 1 dps mage using dsm/at + reserve spells while capping out int.

We got surrounded by ogres - you know: big dumb brute barbarians yeah? Cr 18 area so ogres are around lvl 18 barbarians - a class with Low will/reflex saves and high fort.

To manage the battlefield we tried to attack the weakness of ogres - them being dumb brute barbarians with low will progression.

We learnt they got 16 will save.

The level 21 wiz/rogue/At/dsm had 18 will save after greater resist. She has 26 int.
The level 21 swb8/du7/wiz3/sd3 had 9 will save at 21 with no buffs.

both of us have 10 wis.


But the ogre barbarian had higher will save than the party wizard and almost twice the will save of the party tank.


None of our will save spells (shadow daze, shadow spray, mass hold monster) did anything.

Mage went invis and I hipsed away to repositon with fewer ogres so we didnt die. But the fact that friggin ogres got more will saves18 levels of low will save compared to a wizard with 18 levels of high 3 levels of low is ridiculous.

That doesn't surprise me in the least.

I've been holding off from posting in this up until now but you're absolutely right; if there's one complaint among the myriad made throughout this thread that holds water, it's NPC saving throws.

It's very discouraging to hear from epic level wizards that they're primarily relegated to hyper-buffing their friends and then circling their ankles like lost puppies after the fact-- barring, I don't know, the Missile Storms they can throw for fun I suppose.

I've yet to reach that point with any of my arcane casters- epic levels, that is- but I have gotten far enough along that I've seen certain creatures whose "lowest" saving throw is more than enough to meet good DCs consistently. It's bonkers.

Despite not dedicating much of the post to it the inflated saves is perhaps my biggest gripe out of the lot, especially given the insistence that this server is meant to be balanced solely for PvE. My monk shouldn't be level 15 with 12 wisdom and still have kobolds beating the fortitude save 9 out of 10 times.

Did some more testing of Uncanny dodge. It's stronger than I remembered it.

Parties:
My dex-tank who (at the time of testing) had:
10 base + 4 armor + 4 deflection + 2 natural = 20 AC that she should have if flatfooted.
She also has +6 dex, +6 intelligence, +4 dodge, +2 tumble dodge, +1 One Weapon dodge, +1 Athkatlan dodge = 40 AC if uncanny dodge works.

She was attacked by lvl 30 sneaker who is pure stealth classes, who was given 2 glubs to reduce his AB to 20.

Meaning: If Uncanny Dodge doesn't work, from stealth, he should always hit me except for a nat 1. If uncanny dodge does work, he should never hit hit me except for a nat 20.

I do not have Improved Uncanny Dodge, so we couldn't test if the Sneak Attack deny part of IUD works. However, if you have the AC to avoid being hit, it's hardly relevant.

First try:
first flurry of 4 attacks from HiPS, all of them "Sneak Attack." All of but one of them rolled above 20. None of them hit. There was 1 natural 1.

Second try:
First flurry of 4 attacks from HiPS, all of them "Sneak Attack."
First attack was a natural 20, and I failed my fort save vs paralysis. Theoretically, I should only have 20 AC even WITH Uncanny Dodge, as I'm immobilized.
Second attack: 18, miss even without uncanny
Third attack: 23, miss, it should have hit because paralysis
Fourth attack: 17: miss, even without uncanny.

Finally, we tested how Parry interacts while paralyzed and vs sneakers.

4 attacks came in.
I parried all 4 of them.
While paralyzed
While being attacked by a sneaker.

Being paralyzed made Parry stronger, as I should have only parried one attack.
And I should have been hit because Uncanny Dodge shouldn't work while paralyzed, and yet it does. Although that we couldn't test as I parried all attacks.




However, Uncanny Dodge does work vs the Harpoon Spdier's "immobilize" attack. I am not sure what the difference is between Paralysis and that effect.



I will also test this against Sudden Sneak Attack, to see if maybe that can pierce Uncanny Dodge. When I can find someone with that feat online.




Therefore, Uncanny Dodge is stronger than it should be per description.
Per description, it should only work while able to move but flat-footed (knockdown, charm, sneak attack, from invis, surprise attack before initiative is rolled). However, it also works for paralysis.

Furthermore, Parry presently works as thus:

You parry the first attack of the first flurry, first attack of the second flurry, first attack of the third flurry.

Per description, you should only be able to parry as many attacks as you have attacks of your own.

However, I already knew you can "parry dance" to cancel your animations to block an infinite amount of attacks. This is limited still by your skill rolls so can fail.

It would appear even if you are paralyzed, you can also parry an infinite amount of attacks.

Which means, if you're playing a dex-fighter and get in a situation you would lose your AC due to paralysis? Turn on parry mode for becoming immortal.