Should we lessen restrictions on the Underdark? [Poll]

[JCVD1]

I've been saying for years that UD-surface isn't viable at the current numbers of players. It's been a constant source of "But us in the UD.."complaints and honestly,there was already not enough stuff going on the surface to "split" events we had betweem the UD and the surface.

Also, a lot of former staff did not know enough lore of the UD to make something interesting happen, so they simply did not go down there and focus on surface RP.

Further more, some people "don't like evil RP" as players and staff members (in the past, atleast) and it showed in every mass server events.

I'd say finally get rid of it and turn it into a grinding monster zone, or leave it as it is until there are enough UDers to justify Drow parades in BG and Human stage bands in Sshamath.

[Ravial]

It has the Black Abbey banite shrine and a ruined temple underneath,

The temple isn't ruined anymore. And because of that, it's now an area overseen an Imperceptor, rather high rank in the Banite hierarchy, that same Imperceptor who is also a high ranked Zhentarim, as such, attacking Soubar and threatening the Temple would, in theory, involve the Zhentarim (and the more militant members of the church of the Dark Three + Loviatar)

Also gives a much better reason for Banites and company to want to defender the area.

Oh, didn't know about that development. Thanks for saying it!

[YYA]

Please, don't mix up "safe" areas and "neutral areas", they are totally different concepts. Safe areas are only cities, but everywhere else, it's neutral area when one can be challenged for PvP by anyone.

If we are philosophical about it, there can be a multitude of different area concepts. But if we are a bit more engineerial about it, if we consider the objective reality of it: how players actually interact -- I cannot point an actual difference between a 'Safe' and a supposed 'Neutral' area.

Mechanically, safe zone is a place where a PC feels totally safe. Nobody can attack them without breaking server rules. Neutral zone is where PvP RP to be expected and where it can happen so one should be ready for such a possibility.

And I would repeat; what is the supposed difference meant to be exactly? Let us say that a bandit or a mugger draws a dagger and demands all your gold, or else. The server rules state that the aggressor doesn't dictate the RP out, and thus whether you faced this bandit on the streets of Baldur's Gate or some murky dungeon along the Tradeway -- you could just scream for guards, or just run away, as your RP out. Thus let us assume that the restrictions are lowered in some of the areas of this server, and let us imagine an entirely hypothetical group of Paladins or Elves that might for reasons of their own wish to drive away all the Drow that have made their homes on the streets... erm, mud puddles of Soubar: well, when confronted our Drow could just choose running away and getting mixed into the local crowd as their RP out. What are you going to do then? The hypothetical group of Elves and Paladins will applaud themselves in one corner, and the drow do the same in another corner of the area, and should members of either group meet during the 24 hour period, to buy local supplies or some such, both will just have to pretend to have seen nothing at all until they can repeat this song and dance come the next day, and the next, and the next. I guess it will be quite exciting to see which group breaks the server rules first, and which group the Dungeon Masters will eventually side with.

[AlwaysSummer Day]

I play Roland, a Svirfneblin Fist of the Forest. I already almost exclusively play him on the Surface. I do not loot. I do not grind. I do not quest. I do not seek pvp. I do not take up space in events. If someone attacked and defeated him without any RP I would not say a word about it. I would accept it.

Why play on the surface. I can't find players in the UD most of the time. When I do they are often not interested in RPing with a player outside their clique. Also I do not know the maps. Many are blackened out and thus learning them is even more of a pain in the ass. Roland is a "sub optimal build" that can't fight his way out of a wet paper bag so exploring alone is dangerous.

Am I in the wrong? Yes. Not sure I care though as I am not harming anyone else's RP or enjoyment. Though his race while wearing that helmet has been metagamed about 1000 times by now xD

[EasternCheesE]

If we are philosophical about it, there can be a multitude of different area concepts. But if we are a bit more engineerial about it, if we consider the objective reality of it: how players actually interact -- I cannot point an actual difference between a 'Safe' and a supposed 'Neutral' area.

Mechanically, safe zone is a place where a PC feels totally safe. Nobody can attack them without breaking server rules. Neutral zone is where PvP RP to be expected and where it can happen so one should be ready for such a possibility.

And I would repeat; what is the supposed difference meant to be exactly? Let us say that a bandit or a mugger draws a dagger and demands all your gold, or else. The server rules state that the aggressor doesn't dictate the RP out, and thus whether you faced this bandit on the streets of Baldur's Gate or some murky dungeon along the Tradeway -- you could just scream for guards, or just run away, as your RP out. Thus let us assume that the restrictions are lowered in some of the areas of this server, and let us imagine an entirely hypothetical group of Paladins or Elves that might for reasons of their own wish to drive away all the Drow that have made their homes on the streets... erm, mud puddles of Soubar: well, when confronted our Drow could just choose running away and getting mixed into the local crowd as their RP out. What are you going to do then? The hypothetical group of Elves and Paladins will applaud themselves in one corner, and the drow do the same in another corner of the area, and should members of either group meet during the 24 hour period, to buy local supplies or some such, both will just have to pretend to have seen nothing at all until they can repeat this song and dance come the next day, and the next, and the next. I guess it will be quite exciting to see which group breaks the server rules first, and which group the Dungeon Masters will eventually side with.

Sorry, but a bunch of paladins who just want walk into Soubar and start swinging blades claiming to cleanse drow will just be godmodding Soubar forces. Such things should be done under DM supervision in first place, i believe.
When you speak that drow can run away when you gather a bunch of folk to kill them, they can do the same by teleporting/hipsing etc away from the middle of the fight. And, being frank, surface PCs are either in neutral zone or in safe zone when they go all the way to Sshamath. So, drow can't shunt away any goodie that wants to come down and shine like a little sun irritating their eyes too. Things are workable on mutual agreement and with mutual consent. Asking for an exclusive right to force people to PvP doesn't sound like enjoyable time for someone who's being forced into it.

[Rhifox]

Currently Boareskyr Bridge contains the entrance to En Dharasha Everae.

An alternate approach at the moment is to - again - cross Boareskyr, High Moors, Misty Forest and finally transition thru the hidden waypoint.

Getting to EDE is already troublesome due to vicinity of Soubar. Encouraging drow to hang out in that area - right outside the guild town of a chaotic good race that hate drow....

is not a good idea, even if you need a key to use the stone circle.

I'd say we could add a path through Trollclaws that goes to a new area comprised of the road between Dragonspear and Boareskyr. So you could have two paths to the north by this direction: the current Thundar->Boareskyr->Misty, and Thundar->Trollclaws->North of Boareskyr->Misty. We could also add another Winding Water boat in Trollclaws that allows people to go to fire giants. Or even just actually have a land route through High Moor and/or Serpent Hills to the Greypeaks.

And if we could ideally support Kraak Helzak as the 'good-aligned Soubar' (in terms of being a convenient offloading point for characters adventuring in the north), that'd be great, I think. Once the caravans are fixed, and a Trollclaws->north route added, good players could easily take wagon from BG to Kraak Helzak and then go north from there to their adventuring areas.

[YYA]

Sorry, but a bunch of paladins who just want walk into Soubar and start swinging blades claiming to cleanse drow will just be godmodding Soubar forces. Such things should be done under DM supervision in first place, i believe.

What should and what will are often two different things. And as for 'just swinging blades' or 'peppering with arrows' -- they were just traveling when they came upon a group of evil or evil enough drow -- and since that encounter ended in a disagreement... Things can happen before local forces have a time to react. It is but a personal conflict between two small groups of player characters, etc...

When you speak that drow can run away when you gather a bunch of folk to kill them, they can do the same by teleporting/hipsing etc away from the middle of the fight.

It is not quite the same thing as an RP out. RP out ends the PvP encounter, so speak. Teleportation can be traced, stealth can be detected, etc, which could further continue this PvP encounter.

So, drow can't shunt away any goodie that wants to come down and shine like a little sun irritating their eyes too.

If the surfacers are without a disguise, and in the tunnels between either Sshamath or Upperdark, these surfacers can be slain on sight according to server rules. The reason why it doesn't usually happen is because the surface characters tend to have level range of '***' while the relatively sparse active Underdark characters are most likely in the level ranges of '*' or '**'. And honestly, who wants to argue with the Dungeon Masters about the validity of a disguise? So, by ignoring surface characters in the Underdark, you can actually avoid a whole lot of potential troubles and hassles.

[Azroth]

3. the general 'safe' area that has been abused to hell and back again by UD is the shrine of Eldath in the Reaching Woods, where veiled threats, taunts, etc are made because its a shrine to peace and therefor no blood should be shed there, so people use it to troll and try to force a reaction from other people. Making more 'safe' areas for UD people will likely only increase that. "I'm Evil, I'm a drow, I taunt you, but because you follow your silly surface laws, you can't do anything about it Blows Razzberries" isn't exactly compelling RP, and I fear that is what the 'safe' areas will turn into, "I am going to be mean and insulting as an evil character, and you can't touch me, because I will just teleport out after saying all these horrible things and spreading horrible lies about people and just slip away out of your reach." Just gets annoying rather then compelling.

Surfacers do this already inside public Guild Hall spaces but when one or two Drow do it in a remote place it's a problem?

I was not gonna say anything, but yes, there are more than a few groups who invite Drow presence into the guild halls, be it lawful or not.

Even in cannon it's a thing, where Drow work with the unscrupulous, etc. On the Surface. Or others depending on the agenda at the time.

I might make a post about some of that later, in a more appropriate place, which is why I held off. At least at the time as I had planed to do just that.

[Almarea90]

I voted yes for multiple reasons:

Server population is already dwindling therefore we should give more avenues of RP not less. I can't see nothing wrong in UD and surface interacting more.

Imho the less KoS areas the better. I am not a fan of the system and things that are imposed by a player to another unwilling player, including PvP, never end well.

I appreciate many characters are sworn to kill drow on sight and would not make sense they leave them run away, but I am fairly sure the same can be said for banites and other blatantly evil aligned elements. If those sworn to eradicate them can abide by the rules and give them an RP out same can be done for drow.

Drow on the surface should be a minority, that is true. So should be level 30 characters, or characters able to cast level 9 spells, good aligned tiefling, evil aligned aasimars, favored souls, you name them. The PC represent a small minority compared to the vast majority of the population represented by NPC, as far as I understand.

I also understand there is a certain concern that the drow, as it happened for tiefling, will move from being a monster race to be killed on sight to being the friendly neighborhood drow. If this happens because the RP leads to that I can't see why not. The sourcebook quoted about the majority of the drow being evil and about most people wishing to kill them on sight are certainly a good starting point for those with fresh character, but if I have been here two years and nine drow out of ten I have interacted with are either friendly or reasonable then it's only natural my character would start wondering that maybe it is more appropriate to talk before blasting and not the other way around. I understand this is not how the majority of canon drow are but we cannot forbid people from playing the concepts they like and forcing them to stay in the UD by OOC means isn't going to make those characters not exist. That said, I am fairly sure there will still be people ready to wipe the whole drow population even if they are free to roam on the neutral area and by all means this is how it should be. The PW is nice because we all play different characters.

In regards to the concern about the north becoming a PvP/gankfest, this should be greatly mitigated by the removal of KoS in that area and, whatever PvP happens, would be between consenting parties as it should be.

About the entrance of EDE, that is a very good point. Rather than aborting the entire project, though, this might be resolved by changing the transition to somewhere else or adding an alternative path.

Finally, to address the UD population growing thinner and thinner, I believe that ship is already sailed. The UD population is and will keep diminishing even if this project doesn't go ahead. This way, at least we will see an increase of UD character even if they hang out on the surface.

[JIŘÍ]

How about people cared more how to promote mutual Intraction be it hostile one or allied one?

Why instead of finding mutual agreement how to handle conflict between two hostile groups and how to promote to have it sense and meaning, people only care how to trash the other side?

I mean who is damaging server and community more. People who want more rp options and interactions or people who point at them call them griefers abusers rule breakers or even imply any change in how things are done on server will mean the other side is auto-griefing immedietly?

[JustAnotherGuy]

When you speak that drow can run away when you gather a bunch of folk to kill them, they can do the same by teleporting/hipsing etc away from the middle of the fight.

It is not quite the same thing as an RP out. RP out ends the PvP encounter, so speak. Teleportation can be traced, stealth can be detected, etc, which could further continue this PvP encounter.

Wanted to throw this out there. Teleportation ends PvP immediately, per the rules. Stealth does not. Per the rules, when one party in PvP leaves the map, they have lost the PvP encounter, and must abide by the rules of losing said PvP, which includes avoiding the winning party for 24 hours.

And in EasternCheesE's post, his wording led me to believe that the party HiPS'd out of the fight. If so, the PvP has ended, and the HiPSer has lost. Whoever leaves the conflict once actual fighting begins has lost the PvP.

[Azroth]

How about people cared more how to promote mutual Intraction be it hostile one or allied one?

Why instead of finding mutual agreement how to handle conflict between two hostile groups and how to promote to have it sense and meaning, people only care how to trash the other side?

I mean who is damaging server and community more. People who want more rp options and interactions or people who point at them call them griefers abusers rule breakers or even imply any change in how things are done on server will mean the other side is auto-griefing immedietly?

People are perfectly fine bringing views etc, to the table. Perspective is just how it works. One man sees [X] as [Y], while the other sees [Y] as [X].

There is nothing wrong thus far with this thread, no one has been hostile to each other thus far, and I feel most I have seen has been constructive criticism, regardless if one may not have a full understanding of something or not. That's when others step up and help clarify and eductate.

[Tanlaus]

And in EasternCheesE's post, his wording led me to believe that the party HiPS'd out of the fight. If so, the PvP has ended, and the HiPSer has lost. Whoever leaves the conflict once actual fighting begins has lost the PvP.

Most of my sneaks would regard slipping away from a fight alive as winning

[Hoihe]

Currently Boareskyr Bridge contains the entrance to En Dharasha Everae.

An alternate approach at the moment is to - again - cross Boareskyr, High Moors, Misty Forest and finally transition thru the hidden waypoint.

Getting to EDE is already troublesome due to vicinity of Soubar. Encouraging drow to hang out in that area - right outside the guild town of a chaotic good race that hate drow....

is not a good idea, even if you need a key to use the stone circle.

I'd say we could add a path through Trollclaws that goes to a new area comprised of the road between Dragonspear and Boareskyr. So you could have two paths to the north by this direction: the current Thundar->Boareskyr->Misty, and Thundar->Trollclaws->North of Boareskyr->Misty. We could also add another Winding Water boat in Trollclaws that allows people to go to fire giants. Or even just actually have a land route through High Moor and/or Serpent Hills to the Greypeaks.

And if we could ideally support Kraak Helzak as the 'good-aligned Soubar' (in terms of being a convenient offloading point for characters adventuring in the north), that'd be great, I think. Once the caravans are fixed, and a Trollclaws->north route added, good players could easily take wagon from BG to Kraak Helzak and then go north from there to their adventuring areas.

That sounds like a solution, although the stone circle by the bridge remains a possible point of contention - if Boareskyr becomes a place for drow etc to hang out, accessing EDE for low level citizens (who cannot go the long way through Misty) may become impossible.

I am uncertain how to resolve it. Tuck may be able to assist in perhaps moving that stone circle to the new map or I dunno.

[Hoihe]

Currently Boareskyr Bridge contains the entrance to En Dharasha Everae.

An alternate approach at the moment is to - again - cross Boareskyr, High Moors, Misty Forest and finally transition thru the hidden waypoint.

Getting to EDE is already troublesome due to vicinity of Soubar. Encouraging drow to hang out in that area - right outside the guild town of a chaotic good race that hate drow....

is not a good idea, even if you need a key to use the stone circle.

I'd say we could add a path through Trollclaws that goes to a new area comprised of the road between Dragonspear and Boareskyr. So you could have two paths to the north by this direction: the current Thundar->Boareskyr->Misty, and Thundar->Trollclaws->North of Boareskyr->Misty. We could also add another Winding Water boat in Trollclaws that allows people to go to fire giants. Or even just actually have a land route through High Moor and/or Serpent Hills to the Greypeaks.

And if we could ideally support Kraak Helzak as the 'good-aligned Soubar' (in terms of being a convenient offloading point for characters adventuring in the north), that'd be great, I think. Once the caravans are fixed, and a Trollclaws->north route added, good players could easily take wagon from BG to Kraak Helzak and then go north from there to their adventuring areas.

That sounds like a solution, although the stone circle by the bridge remains a possible point of contention - if Boareskyr becomes a place for drow etc to hang out, accessing EDE for low level citizens (who cannot go the long way through Misty) may become impossible.

I am uncertain how to resolve it. Tuck may be able to assist in perhaps moving that stone circle to the new map or I dunno.