Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

My take:

There is nothing in Quentyn's Monologue about abstaining from alcohol and there is nothing in the core paladin code either. We are playing in a gameworld where even the Ilmatari have a patron saint of wine, and another patron saint of fine dining. There is no moral push towards abstinence of any sort in Forgotten Realms, in that regard.

I am also loathe to raise the "medieval world" spectre but it might be illuminating to consider that crusading holy orders in RL that are the inspirations for knightly concepts (even if the paladin is a hopelessly rosy version of these) brewed their own beer of varying strengths and drank the weakest with every meal. Why? Because the low level alcohol content went someway to purify potentially unclean water.

I do not think there should be any stance applicable to all paladins on the question of alcohol.

What would be applicable to all paladins is that they are responsible for their own actions. Being inebriated would not be a get out for that, so they would be liable for any chaotic or evil acts done under the influence. Recklessly drinking so as to be absent from duty I would consider a chaotic act in those circumstances.

I don't think Asmodea's assessment is far off the mark in practical terms of how most paladins would be.

Excellent answers all. Any dissenters? I'd love to hear from the abstinence-only perspective too.

Ark

I'm just going to throw this out there, but we're living in a virtual world where the water is...well, probably toxic to drink alone in most cases. People were throwin' the contents of chamber pots out windows each morning in some areas.

Wine and other spirits were drank more often then plain water not just because it's spirits, but because it was safer.

My paladin abstains from drinking. Just as a personal choice of his.

I feel the others said it well. If the PC is getting wasted for the heck of it, then I would say no. But, a drink in celebration of a victory, ceremony, or after a hard day of pwning necromancers while at the tavern with their buddies, I don't see an issue. Lots of people on these forums do seem to have a pretty cookie-cutter view of how all paladins should be, from reading other threads. So, I would imagine a lot of people might take the view of "If he/she is drinking -anything- he/she must fall from grace".

Wandering_Woodsman wrote:I'm just going to throw this out there, but we're living in a virtual world where the water is...well, probably toxic to drink alone in most cases. People were throwin' the contents of chamber pots out windows each morning in some areas.

Wine and other spirits were drank more often then plain water not just because it's spirits, but because it was safer.

This too recently came up over a boozy lunch.
The collective take on the question was that Tea and beer were increasingly popular in most levels of society as a safer, mineral consuming, way of drinking water, due to the pastuerisation process and limited access to food at times.

Ok so nothing from the abstainers... Seems that the majority opinion is that alcohol and paladins do indeed mix, albeit in different levels of tolerance. Proof of this seems to be the paladin minding their P's and Q's (pints and quarts) and not taking things too far by imbibing to the point where sound decision making is off, and there would be a shot at them losing their paladinhood. ((I just realized that I used several words that are used to describe drinking, or drink... subconscious...?))

Could drinking an excessive (TBD character to character in terms of what that means) level cause a paladin to do something that would have them fall from grace?

Considering the prestige nature of the class, I am hesitant to think that, but there seems to be a theme.

Opinions?

ser Arkanis, the Teetotaler, as long as by tea you mean Canadian Whisky

I think whether the act of getting drunk could be considered sinful depends on the deity. Torm's code for instance, says that one must avoid excesses (source: http://dustin.wikidot.com/code-of-torm ). In such an instance I imagine that they would possibly undergo a minor atonement if they willingly got themselves drunk.

I think it might be worth looking into Priam Agrivar as a character study perhaps. I don't have any of those old comics, but he does wrestle with alcoholism at one point and the article on his character doesn't mention if he actually loses Tyr's favor while he's wallowing in self pity. I'd imagine he did, but still.

IRL, historically we've had compasses used for navigation on both land and at sea since the 12th century (Philip II was documented using it to bring troops to the Holy Land according to a Hajó Története by Márai Imre).

That would imply, (assuming 1:1 technological advancement, and considering FR has many technologies that would rather be 15th or 16th century (full plate designs, rapiers, caravels/carracks and so on), FR may be more advanced than equal date Europe) that FR also has compasses.

Is this assumption true? If yes, considering it is known that Abeir-Toril is spherical and not flat, is there a difference between magnetic north and true north?

Hoihe wrote:IRL, historically we've had compasses used for navigation on both land and at sea since the 12th century (Philip II was documented using it to bring troops to the Holy Land according to a Hajó Története by Márai Imre).

That would imply, (assuming 1:1 technological advancement, and considering FR has many technologies that would rather be 15th or 16th century (full plate designs, rapiers, caravels/carracks and so on), FR may be more advanced than equal date Europe) that FR also has compasses.

Is this assumption true? If yes, considering it is known that Abeir-Toril is spherical and not flat, is there a difference between magnetic north and true north?

There are a few things that I see here that I think you are looking for some direction on

Lore concerning Aber-Toril: "Toril, occasionally known as Abeir-Toril was the name of a planet in Realmspace. The name "Abeir-Toril" was archaic, meaning "cradle of life" in an extinct and forgotten language. It consisted of various continents and islands, including Faerûn, Kara-Tur, and Zakhara in the central super-continent and, throughout most of its history, Anchorome, Maztica, and Katashaka in the western super-continent. Following the Spellplague, however, Maztica (and likely Anchorome as well) was replaced by the continent of Laerakond. There was also one large and very mysterious continent east of Kara-Tur called Osse whose nature and inhabitants were all but unknown.[citation needed]

Toril's crystal sphere was called Realmspace (Realmspace was the term used to describe the Torilian system and its surrounding environs. To those on the surface of Toril, Realmspace was called the Sea of Night. Contained within a crystal sphere, Realmspace consisted of wildspace (empty vacuum), a sun, eight planetoids, and their satellites. Realmspace is located within the Prime Material Plane). It was orbited by one moon named Selûne, and by a cluster of asteroids, known as the Tears of Selûne."

From this I get that Toril is spherical/an orb.

As to true vs. magnetic north, "A compass needle will point to the direction of the Magnetic North Pole. But this doesn't mean that a compass always points to the Geographic North Pole. This difference is magnetic inclination. The Earth's magnetic north is changing every day because of the hot, liquid metal that surrounds the inner core." If Aber-Toril is a planet similar to earth in terms of composition (which, based on many similarities, magic being the most notable difference) then it too has a hot inner core, and would have some sort of magnetic field.

And finally, concerning compasses. There are several seas and oceans on the world, and there is sea-faring lore/books written around it. The wooden ships IMHO are very similar to those of the time period (and later) that you mention, and a compass and sextant would be the non-magical way to navigate the waves (there is a north pole, and there are stars.)

Sea Fever
BY JOHN MASEFIELD
I must go down to the seas again, to the lonely sea and the sky,
And all I ask is a tall ship and a star to steer her by;
And the wheel’s kick and the wind’s song and the white sail’s shaking,
And a grey mist on the sea’s face, and a grey dawn breaking.

I must go down to the seas again, for the call of the running tide
Is a wild call and a clear call that may not be denied;
And all I ask is a windy day with the white clouds flying,
And the flung spray and the blown spume, and the sea-gulls crying.

I must go down to the seas again, to the vagrant gypsy life,
To the gull’s way and the whale’s way where the wind’s like a whetted knife;
And all I ask is a merry yarn from a laughing fellow-rover,
And quiet sleep and a sweet dream when the long trick’s over.

Arkanis

What all can you tell me of the Darksong Knights of Eilistraee in general and in this time frame please?

LISA100595 wrote:What all can you tell me of the Darksong Knights of Eilistraee in general and in this time frame please?

LISA100595 wrote:What all can you tell me of the Darksong Knights of Eilistraee in general and in this time frame please?

Ok there is not much:

From some apocrypha:

"The worship of the goddess Eilistraee has expanded beyond its origins to the greater reaches of Faerun. In an effort to maintain a hold on the various places of worship, to bolster their efforts to bring good Drow to the surface and to continue to strike at the heart of all evil (but especially that of the Dark Seldarine), the Dark Ladies (the religious leaders of Eilistraee's church) created the Darksong Knights to be the martial arm and champions of The Dark Maiden. This is for all intents and purposes, the Paladin order of Eilistraee. And as such, they follow a chivalrous code as well as receive the benefits and requirements of all paladins..."

"The Darksong Knights were mostly active in, or under, the lands of ancient Ilythiir in south Faerûn. Following the Time of Troubles of 1358 DR, they'd begun to roam further afield,[but by 1370 DR they remained predominantly in the South still. Around 1374 DR, they were considered to be mainly active in the Underdark... A Darksong Knight dedicated her or his life to spreading the ethos of Eilistraee, advancing her causes, and especially to slaying the yochlol, the demons who served as the handmaidens of Lolth."

Eric L. Boyd (1998). Demihuman Deities. (Wizards of the Coast), pp. 15-16. ISBN 0-7869-1239-1
Thomas M. Reid, Sean K. Reynolds (Nov. 2005). Champions of Valor. (Wizards of the Coast), p. 100. ISBN 0-7869-3697-5

And from the Great Bearded One himself (via Twitter) As of the 1490s DR, post–Second Sundering, (ok this is WAY off our server timeline, but c'mon... Ed Greenwood... )

Teagan le Fey
@Teagan_leFey
@ChrisPerkinsDnD @mikemearls @Wizards_DnD are the Darksong Knights(order of Eilistraee Paladin) still active and/or part of the Harpers?#dnd

Ed Greenwood
@TheEdVerse
Replying to @Teagan_leFey
They are. Thin on the ground at the moment, but very much active.

To more directly answer your question:

1. In this (meaning server) time frame of DR 1353 the lore is non existent - they exist but are mostly active in Southern Faerun, around Halruaa. (roughly 1,600 miles as the crow flies from BG)

I extrapolate this because by DR 1358 they are more well known, and so I assume they just didn't conjure out of thin air - in DR 1353 they certainly must have existed in some format, but the lore doesn't say much.

Hope this helps.

Arkanis

How advanced is mathematics in Faerun?


Assuming that wizardry requires mathematics, it'd imply mathematics is incredibly advanced in Forgotten Realms (at the very least equivalent to modern mathematics). Am I wrong in this count?

Hoihe wrote:How advanced is mathematics in Faerun?


Assuming that wizardry requires mathematics, it'd imply mathematics is incredibly advanced in Forgotten Realms (at the very least equivalent to modern mathematics). Am I wrong in this count?

There is little mentioned about mathematics in Faerun anywhere. I don't think this is because it doesn't exist but rather: a) the world is based on magic per se and not formulas... can you imagine the RP game where instead of casting a fireball, you have to solve complex equations...? UGH!, and b) it is generally assumed that mathematics work the same there as they do in real life.

What I could find, and it wasn't much is this:

Mezro was the largest civilized population center in Chult. It was a holy place to the Tabaxi people, being founded by their god Ubtao. In the Scholars' Quarter located in the northeast was the Library of Mezro, the College of Wizards, and the Warriors' Training Ground. It was full of other schools as well, as the city educated every child in math, history, and literacy, and guilds were not present there to teach crafts.

James Lowder, Jean Rabe (1993). The Jungles of Chult. (TSR, Inc), pp. 13–14. ISBN 1-5607-6605-0.

Heptios was the most powerful wizard in Chessenta in 1357 DR. Heptios considered himself a philosopher believing that passion was always dangerous and that man must follow a rational path. Despite the rumors, he believed that the Numbers Cult's goal to translate magic into mathematics and find a magic equation to rule the world was based on a mistake.

Scott Bennie (1990). Old Empires. (TSR, Inc), p. 62. ISBN 0-8803-8821-8.

Pertaining to Chessenta, in the apocrypha:

Although the Chessentans are not great monument builders, they are nonetheless considered among the most skilled architects in the Realms. Mathematical techniques are used to make their buildings even more impressive. The great palaces and temples are built in what is known as the “temple” style: a large square roof supported by elaborately decorated columns, with friezes and reliefs around the side. They are typically made of marble or granite, again from Mulhorand. The ancient influence of Unther is still visible in the many Untheric ruins - including temples, ziggurats and abandoned fortresses – that still stand in many Chessentan cities, including the Pyramid of the Sceptanar of Cimbar.

In Chessenta, study of universe is done in an abstract and philosophical way. A Chessentan philosopher considers what he knows of the world around them, and then seeks to apply that knowledge further a-field, or to other topics. Instead of measuring the circumference of Toril by using magic to measure it directly, these philosophers use clever mathematics. And in doing so, they learn a whole more than the magician did.

They don’t learn such things just to write them down and forget them, or to seek power. They consider the universe for its own sake, and love to explain it to other folk. In Chessenta, and especially in Cimbar, teachers and philosophers are recognized as the pinnacles of human achievement.

A vast range of topics are considered by Chessentan philosophers: astronomy, physics, mathematics, geometry, biology, medicine and the human condition. Technological inventions are also taking off, with many Chessentan philosophers interested in Mulhorandi pressure and steam engines.

Many philosophers of like mind and world-view band together into groups where they can discuss their ideas, support each other and lobby to have their views accepted. Most form simple clubs that meet in taverns, others form their own schools. Some develop experimental communes outside the cities where they can live according to their philosophy on how humans should behave. A few even create secret societies and cults that work to enact their philosophical ideals upon Chessenta. One such secret society is the Numbers Cult, which attempts to translate magic into mathematics and vice versa and create equations that will conquer the world.

The greatest and wisest of the philosopher-mages is Heptios of Cimbar. Although he is said to be the most powerful wizard in Chessenta, he has abandoned the mage’s life to wander the streets of Cimbar and speak to the crowds about all manner of topics. Mostly the commoners ignore him, or grow angry at his patronizing attempts to educate them and throw stuff. Some have even tried to kill him. But Heptios has survived all this thanks to magical shields
The Numbers Cult

Rumours persist of a secret society known as the Numbers Cult, a group of madmen who attempt to translate magic into mathematics and vice versa, then create equations that will conquer the world. Most serious philosophers and wizards see the idea as ridiculous and false, but that hasn’t stopped anyone from trying.

Centres Of Activity

As a secret society that no-one is sure exists, the Numbers Cult is hard to pin down. Most suspect that if it does exist, its members can be found lurking in the colleges and universities of Chessenta. Prime among these would be the University of Cimbar. Areas of architectural or astronomical significance are said to be prime haunts.

Members

Over the years, a number of mathematicians have gone mad chasing down mathematical enigmas, whilst just as many wizards have lost their minds delving into dark secrets. Most wind up in mental institutions or die, but some disappear to continue their research. It is these people who are said to make up the Numbers Cult.

And finally;

Vhostym, also called the Sojourner, is a member of the sparsely populated but powerful offshoots of the Gith sundering, the Githvyrik Vhostym is an ancient and extremely powerful being who has both arcane and psionic powers to call upon. Vhostym worships no god or goddess, as he sees the gods as nothing compared to the utter randomness and enormity of the universe. The only order and predictability that the universe has to offer him is its perfect Mathematics, which he uses to bolster his spellcraft, making him near unrivaled by any but the gods themselves. He resolved through his increase in power that the only law in the universe was that those who are weak should suffer the will of the powerful, and that morality, whether good or evil, is a fiction created by sentient beings to bring purpose to meaninglessness. Vhostym went on in his youth to build and use his strength for his own desires, destroying entire worlds, slaughtering flights of dragons and thousands, perhaps millions of creatures.
Vhostym takes no pleasure from the suffering of others, while not hesitating to wipe out civilizations and worlds for his whims. He is a neutral opportunist, as he neither loves nor hates any being in a universe so unpredictable, which identifies him as something of a nihilist.
As of 1370 DR, he had lived for over 10,000 years, bolstering his lifespan through the use of powerful magics. It was around this time that he came in conflict with Erevis Cale while trying to achieve his goal of creating the "Crown of flame" (not the spell).

http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?T ... hichpage=7

I would say IMHO that mathematics in the FR works the same as it does here in real life under normal, non influenced situations.

This means that magic, magical properties, the presence of omnipotent and omniscient beings, can greatly mess around with what we could consider to be normal mathematical laws... take the spell, Reverse Gravity for example... magic can also undo or suspend the laws of thermodynamics, etc.

Remember too that there is really no prerequisite, other than higher stats (namely INT) in becoming a Wizard. You memorize, practice, and cast. A Bard sings, a Druid has nature, a Cleric their god, the Sorcerer, uh, well, just KNOWS how to do it, etc. Think about a high priestess of Gond and what she would KNOW on an engineering-based kind of level... even if she didn't recognize it as complex formulas, there would be patterns which could be explained as mathematics to us in real life.

As there is no specific mechanism in our electronic game to accommodate mathematics per se, I would think anything a character might want to do with it could be RPed out, with the approval and oversight of the DM team.

My two cents

Professor Arkanis

While I know it's harder to represent on a character model in-game, how far can a mundane disguise be taken in Faerun?

What sort of plants are available to function as hair dye or for changing skin color? Are cosmetic eye lenses a thing at all? That sort of thing.

Cenerae wrote:While I know it's harder to represent on a character model in-game, how far can a mundane disguise be taken in Faerun?

What sort of plants are available to function as hair dye or for changing skin color? Are cosmetic eye lenses a thing at all? That sort of thing.

If we were to take a real-life time setting compared to the game (excluding magic, of course) I'd put the game technology level anywhere from the 15th to the 17th centuries depending on your point of view. In real life, at this time, things like dye were common. Tanners, clothiers, etc. had been using various forms of plant-based dies for centuries, and a variety of colours would be available to make, or be purchased, and there would be a general level of knowledge on how to do it without too much in-depth research. In my reading, different coloured dyes would be more or less expensive, depending on the colour - reds and purples being the most expensive. Approaching any tailor/clothing maker/tanner and asking to have a dye made wouldn't be an unreasonable request, assuming you had the coin to pay. Subsequently, if you were looking for more rudimentary dyes, shamanistic (or more primitive) cultures could be researched and basic dye making (what plants to use, etc.) could be readily found - I would think a trip to Candlekeep might turn up a tome or two on the subject with basic recipes.

In my research, contact lenses in the real world were hypothesized by da Vinci but the first contact lenses were not actually (successfully) created until 1887 - and made out of glass. I would contend that with an inventive spirit, a glass blower, and maybe a little magic, a pair of mundane (magically created/enhanced) contact lenses could be produced. I would say that this would be something that is possible to do based on theory, design, and creation in the real world vis-a-vis the FR timeline.

In terms of how-to bring this into game, IMO it would mean more role playing than actual procurement of basic dyes, contact lenses, wigs, etc. You can purchase new hair styles for your character that take an inventory slot and will alter your hair appearance, and you can also purchase mundane clothing and use the appearance changer. Outside of using magic of Disguise as a skill (which changes your name on your character sheet for the purposes of being disguised), mundane-type disguises would (again, in my opinion only) be a function of role playing. I would say that depending on how well known your character is, would depend on a certain amount of "frame of reference" scenarios, i.e. you're a known member of the city guard, how likely is it that, dressed like a beggar with a wig on, and mud smeared on you, that you would be recognized huddled in an alley on a stake out? In your own town, maybe very likely, in another town, maybe very unlikely.

Again, without the use of magic, set skill rolls/checks/modifiers, and/or a way to change your name, anyone hovering their mouse over your toon to see who you are would at least have some OOC knowledge, and could walk up to you and make spot/search/motive checks to see if they could figure out who you really are.

If you are looking to do some advanced work/research/practice into non-magical means of disguise, I would say that you would definitely need the DM team to buy-in to the idea, and have some level of DM supervision if you were going to role-play being in disguise that falls outside of the semantics and capabilities of the game to self-adjudicate.

Ark