(Note to self - stop asking for hard questions...)Tsidkenu wrote:I've got a multifaceted one for you, Arkie, all about clerics!
1. Clerical magic does not require the complicated somatic components like arcane magic does. From what I've read from FR novels, the core somatic component for clerical magic is simply the act of grasping one's deity's holy symbol with the hand. So, questions:2. Again, from what I've read in some of the FR novels, divine magic is usually cast by directly invoking the name, or title, of the cleric's deity aloud, followed by the prayer or spell they want to cast.
- Does a cleric actually have to grasp the Holy Symbol in a prominent way to cast spells, or can they grab at it through a garment or place they have it hidden on their person?
- If a cleric has prepared Still metamagic spells, does this mean they do not need a physical connection to their deity's holy symbol as the somatic component for those prepared Stilled spells?
3. Evil Clerics pretending to be other (good/neutral/evil) clerics: how much can a cleric get away with while they are under cover? Can they cast spells in the name of their true deity whilst using coded-phrases of the deity/clergy they are impersonating?
- Does a cleric have to utter their deity's name and/or title before every spell cast?
- Can a cleric murmur their spells beneath their breath and it be adequate to cover the vocal spell component (I saw this in one particular novel)? Does it have to be announced aloud for it to suffice the vocal spell component?
- If a cleric has silent metamagic spells prepared, do those spells utterly negate the need to invoke their deity's name/title to cast them?
- Would a stilled & silent divine spell allow the cleric to ignore both the verbal invocation to the deity & physical connection to the deity's holy symbol while casting said spell?
Thanks!
OK Tsidkenu this is the kind of question I really love.
In order to answer it, I want to lay down a few things first:
1. I've only considered the core rule books (all the way back to Basic Edition) as the primary source/authority on this.
2. Our Game is set on v3 - v3.5 rules
3. v4 and v5 suck
4. FR novels are authors interpretations on things, much the way DM's are in their own PnP games, and I am not taking what they say as canonical/law/authority
5. Any components required for spell casting in our game, are a) already built into the software, b) automatically consume things needed to cast the spell, and c) automatically "do the hand motions" etc.
So, bearing all of this in mind, it is only in v3.5 rules that I can find any mention of the components of spell casting - here it is:
Components
A spell’s components are what you must do or possess to cast it. The Components entry in a spell description includes abbreviations that tell you what type of components it has. Specifics for material, focus, and XP components are given at the end of the descriptive text. Usually you don’t worry about components, but when you can’t use a component for some reason or when a material or focus component is expensive, then the components are important.
Verbal (V)
A verbal component is a spoken incantation. To provide a verbal component, you must be able to speak in a strong voice. A silence spell or a gag spoils the incantation (and thus the spell). A spellcaster who has been deafened has a 20% chance to spoil any spell with a verbal component that he or she tries to cast.
Somatic (S)
A somatic component is a measured and precise movement of the hand. You must have at least one hand free to provide a somatic component.
Material (M)
A material component is one or more physical substances or objects that are annihilated by the spell energies in the casting process. Unless a cost is given for a material component, the cost is negligible. Don’t bother to keep track of material components with negligible cost. Assume you have all you need as long as you have your spell component pouch.
Focus (F)
A focus component is a prop of some sort. Unlike a material component, a focus is not consumed when the spell is cast and can be reused. As with material components, the cost for a focus is negligible unless a price is given. Assume that focus components of negligible cost are in your spell component pouch.
Divine Focus (DF)
A divine focus component is an item of spiritual significance. The divine focus for a cleric or a paladin is a holy symbol appropriate to the character’s faith.
If the Components line includes F/DF or M/DF, the arcane version of the spell has a focus component or a material component (the abbreviation before the slash) and the divine version has a divine focus component (the abbreviation after the slash).
XP Cost (XP)
Some powerful spells entail an experience point cost to you. No spell can restore the XP lost in this manner. You cannot spend so much XP that you lose a level, so you cannot cast the spell unless you have enough XP to spare. However, you may, on gaining enough XP to attain a new level, use those XP for casting a spell rather than keeping them and advancing a level. The XP are treated just like a material component—expended when you cast the spell, whether or not the casting succeeds.
In the Spell Compendium (v3.5 2005) there is an exhaustive list of all spells (clerical, magical, druid, ranger, etc) with domains, etc etc etc. In it, it lists each and every spell and if there is a magical component to the spell. Some spells are ranged, some are touch, some are area of effect, etc. etc.
From the core rule books I found the following:
Basic Rules 1974
CLERICAL SPELLS Clerics of the first level can not cast any spells. When they reach the second level, however, they are capable of one spell per game/day. Since clerical spells are divinely given, they do not have to be studied to master them. A second level cleric can call on any first level spell he wants to use, thus the entire gamut of spells is available to him for selection prior to the adventure. However, only that spell or spells selected can be used during the course of the adventure
Advanced Rules 1978
Clerical spells, including the druidic, are bestowed by the gods, so that the cleric need but pray for a few hours and the desired verbal and somatic spell components will be placed properly in his or her mind. First, second, third, and even fourth level spells are granted to the cleric through meditation and devout prayer. This spell giving is accomplished by the lesser servants of the cleric's deity. Fifth, sixth, and seventh level spells can be given to the cleric ONLY by the cleric's deity directly, not through some intermediary source. Note that the cleric might well be judged by his or her deity at such time, as the clerk must supplicate the deity for the granting of these spells. While the deity may grant such spells full willingly, a deed, or sacrifice, atonement or abasement may be required. The deity might also ignore a specific spell request and give the cleric some other spell (or none at all). Your Dungeon Master will handle this considering a cleric's alignment and faithfulness to it and his or her deity. Note that some cleric spells (and all druid spells) also require material ingredients in order for the desired effect to take place. Such components must be supplied by the cleric (or druid), as material is not bestowed.
Expert Rules 1983 p 4
Cleric For the first three Levels of experience, a cleric's power is very limited. But as they advance (to a maximum of 36th level), clerics obtain more spells of greater power, due both to practice and the strengthening of their beliefs. It is very important for clerics to be faithful to their beliefs. If a cleric behaves in a manner that does not fit the character's Alignment or beliefs, the cleric may be punished by the church — or even greater powers. This punishment could, for example, be a penalty on Hit rolls, a dangerous quest that must be completed, or even a lack of spells. Your DM will tell you what the character must do to recover good standing. When a cleric reaches Name level, a castle may be built. If the cleric has never been punished for misbehavior, the cleric's church may help with the cost. Some followers may come to assist and serve the cleric. Your DM will help with the details.
PHB v3.5 p 32 2003
Spells: A cleric casts divine spells (the same type of spells available to the druid, paladin, and ranger), which are drawn from the cleric spell list (page 183). However, his alignment may restrict him from casting certain spells opposed to his moral or ethical beliefs; see Chaotic, Evil, Good, and Lawful Spells, below. A cleric must choose and prepare his spells in advance (see below). To prepare or cast a spell, a cleric must have a Wisdom score equal to at least 10 + the spell level (Wis 10 for 0-level spells, Wis 11 for 1st-level spells, and so forth). The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a cleric’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the cleric’s Wisdom modifier. Like other spellcasters, a cleric can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. His base daily spell allotment is given on Table 3–7: The Cleric. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Wisdom score (see Table 1–1: Ability Modifiers and Bonus Spells, page 8). A cleric also gets one domain spell of each spell level he can cast, starting at 1st level. When a cleric prepares a spell in a domain spell slot, it must come from one of his two domains (see Deities, Domains, and Domain Spells, below). Clerics do not acquire their spells from books or scrolls, nor do they prepare them through study. Instead, they meditate or pray for their spells, receiving them through their own strength of faith or as divine inspiration. Each cleric must choose a time at which he must spend 1 hour each day in quiet contemplation or supplication to regain his daily allotment of spells. Typically, this hour is at dawn or noon for good clerics and at dusk or midnight for evil ones. Time spent resting has no effect on whether a cleric can prepare spells. A cleric may prepare and cast any spell on the cleric spell list (page 183), provided that he can cast spells of that level, but he must choose which spells to prepare during his daily meditation. Deity, Domains, and Domain
AD&D PHB v2 p 33-34
The cleric receives his spell’s as insight directly from his deity (the deity does not need to make a personal appearance to grant the spells the cleric prays for), as a sign of and reward for his faith, so he must take care not to abuse his power lest It be taken away as punishment
Defenders of the Faith 2002
Nothing relevant to your question.
Complete Divine
Nothing relevant to your question.
Pretty vague.
To answer your question (to the best of my ability, and of course, only my opinion)
1. There is no where that says you have to hold your god's holy symbol to cast a spell. It may be a material component in some spells (most I have read have had to do with turning undead) but there is nothing in the core rules that expressly say that you have to hold the holy symbol to cast.
2. The verbal component of the spell can vary from spell to spell. In fact, I found a reference (noted above) that it only has to be in the cleric's heart, or thoughts, it doesn't even need to be spoken aloud. I'd have to dissect the Spell Compendium spell-by-spell to break it down further. Still or silent spells, or spells where THINKING the god's name/a prayer, etc would work, therefore would require nothing to be vocalized.
3. There are two components to evil clerics impersonating good ones, or trying to not get outed for being an evil cleric. First, is their ability to role-play, or bluff, or use diplomacy, etc. to let other characters believe that they are not evil. Obviously, any overt act (i.e. yelling, "BANE I LOVE YOU SMITE THEM!") would negate any colorful acting the character might have been doing however. Second, the actual casting of the spell, should it require a material component say, oh I don't know, blood, bones, calling a demon, that sort of thing, would naturally arouse some suspicions even if the god's name was not called out loud. I think that an evil aligned cleric would do their best to hide as much of their evil abilities as possible, and where not possible, i.e. asked to cast a cure/heal spell, that they could still be true to their god and cast that spell - the spell might only cure a small amount of damage, the spell might cure/heal but the victim is cursed/diseased/poisoned as a result, etc. Fundamentally, and evil character who is high enough level, has lasted that long because of their ability to act and conceal their true nature from others who would seek to do them harm should their true nature be divined.
At the bottom of it all, IMO, is how the DM overseeing the event views the need/necessity for components to be a part of clerical/divine magic. I have talked to a few senior players in my PnP circle about this in the past, and they all agree that there has to be something that slows the spell casting down - for clerics, it is the need to do SOMETHING when they cast: hold the holy symbol, wave hands around, sacrifice the chicken, etc. so that the class is not over-clocked and too powerful. In the end it will depend on the DM and fantasy level your game has which will determine if the cleric(s) in the party need to have a component bag, holy symbol, etc.
Arkanis
