List of Man-at-arms bugs and issues

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mireigi
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List of Man-at-arms bugs and issues

Unread post by mireigi »

Guarding the Lord
Type of Feat: Class Ability
Prerequisites: Man-at-Arms 2nd level
Beginning at 2nd level, the Man At Arms can protect one selected ally within 30 feet. This protection acts as the shield other spell cast at the Man At Arms' character level. The only difference with the spell is that the target only takes 30% damage (instead of 50%), and the Man At Arms takes half the initial damage rounded down (instead of the remaining). This ability can be used three times per day as per the body guard class ability.
Works exactly like the description says it does. However, it does not get removed from the target(s) when the caster rests, but only when the target(s) rest. This causes the caster to continue mitigating damage from the target(s) even after resting and/or leaving the target(s), which can cause the caster to die.

This needs to be fixed so it is the caster who rewokes the protection and not the target(s), as some players (evil characters) can exploit this bug (yes, it have happened to me).

It does not stack with the casters Rescue either, although it should, since it stacks with Rescue cast by another. This should either be fixed or specified in the description.

Rescue
Type of Feat: Class Ability
Prerequisites: Man-at-Arms 14th level
Specifics: When rescue is activated allies within 10 feet take half damage; the amount of damage not taken by your allies is taken by you. You also gain Damage reduction 2/- while activated.
Does in fact not grant DR 2/- while active. Distance to those in the casters party does not matter.

It does not stack with the casters Guarding the Lord either, although it should, since it stacks with Guarding the Lord cast by another. This should either be fixed or specified in the description.

Demoralize Opponent
Type of Feat: Class Ability
Prerequisites: Man-at-Arms 1st level,
Specifics: You bellow a striking taunt that demoralizes the target. The target must succeed a will saving throw or become demoralized. (DC is: 16 + half man-at-arms levels + Charisma modifier) Already shaken creatures can also become demoralized, suffering both effects induces panic.
Use: Selected
It is not listed in the description, but it applies a -2 AB penalty to the target if the save fails. While this may be adequate at level 1 to 5, it is truly abysmal at higher levels, making this ability a lot less desirable.

I propose that the AB penalty scales with level, based on the following:

Code: Select all

Level | AB Penalty
1     | AB penalty of 1 + Charisma modifier / 3, rounded up
6     | AB penalty of 2 + Charisma modifier / 3, rounded up
11    | AB penalty of 3 + Charisma modifier / 2, rounded up
16    | AB penalty of 4 + Charisma modifier / 2, rounded up
21    | AB penalty of 5 + Charisma modifier / 2, rounded up
26+   | AB penalty of 6 + Charisma modifier
Daunting Challenge
Type of Feat: Class Ability
Prerequisites: Man-at-Arms 12th level
Specifics: Starting at 12th level, a Man-at-Arms can issue a daunting challenge as a free action. Like a test of mettle, this is a general challenge to all foes within 100 feet. Affected creatures must make Will saves (DC 15 + 1/2 man-at-arms level + Cha modifier). Creatures that fail this save are shaken. Already demoralized creatures can also become shaken, suffering both effects causes panic.
Use: Selected
It is not listed in the description, but it applies a -1 AB penalty to all enemies in range if they fail the save. This causes the same issues with lack of power at later levels as with Demoralize Opponent.

I propose that the AB penalty scales with level, based on the following:

Code: Select all

Level | AB Penalty
12    | AB penalty of 3 + Charisma modifier / 3, rounded down
21    | AB penalty of 3 + Charisma modifier / 2, rounded down
30    | AB penalty of 3 + Charisma modifier
I did some more testing and I have found a gameplay issue for this ability. There is no indication on those who fail their save, that they have failed it. When fighting multiple enemies, often with similar or matching names, you will not know if it was enemy A or B who failed the save. This makes it impossible to combine the ability with Demoralize Opponent to fear an enemy away, and thus reduce pressure on you and those you travel with. Also, there is no indication of when the effects run out. The lack of indication also applies to Demoralize Opponent, but is more severe for this ability.

Challenge
Type of Feat: Class Ability
Prerequisites: Man-at-Arms 1st level
Specifics: "Your dauntless fighting spirit plays a major role in your fighting style, as important as the strength of your arm or the sharpness of your blade. In battle, you use the force of your personality to challenge your enemies. You can call out a foe, shouting a challenge that boosts his confidence or issueing a general challenge that strikes fear into weak opponents and compels strong opponents to seek you out for personal combat. By playing on your enemies' ego, you can manipulate your foes."You can issue a challenge to an enemy, gaining a +1 bonus on Will saves, attack rolls, and damage rolls. The effect lasts for a number of rounds equal to 5 + your Charisma modifier (if any). At 7th level, the bonus you gain from this ability increases to +2. At 13th level, it rises to +3. At 19th level, it increases to +4. At 25th level, it increases to +5. At 30th level, it increases to +6. You can't issue any another such challenge until designated the opponent has been defeated or fled. (affecting this ability only)
Use: Selected
Works exactly as specified, but the duration is too short against many of the more powerful enemies such as Dragons, Balors and other epic monsters. It should be possible to use this ability against the same enemy for as long as it is standing. Otherwise the bonuses granted will only be useful for the first 5 to 10 rounds, which is not long enough against most of the epic monsters, even with a good party.

Also, if you do PvP and lose after using the ability, you cannot use it again until you have rested or the character you PvPed against have either died to monsters or lost in PvP.

I did some further testing and this ability does not become usable even after your target flees. Maybe I am reading the flee part wrong, but I would naturally assume that scaring an enemy away would constitute it as the enemy have fled. Yet the ability does not become useable if the target it was used on is feared in any way (Demoralize Opponent + Daunting Challenge causes panic and fear in the target, so it should reset).

Demoralize Opponent, Challenge, Mocking Challenge and Daunting Challenge
Using any of these abilities invokes a cooldown on the others as well. It is not noted anywhere in the description of each ability. While this may be by intent, it forces the caster to stop rotating abilities when facing multiple enemies, saving the cooldown for only Mocking Challenge (and possibly Challenge).

With the issues (and bugs) listed for Demoralize Opponent, Challenge and Daunting Challenge, you are usually left with only using Mocking Challenge to ensure enemies stay on you. Challenge could be used whenever an enemy dies, that it was used on, but this incurs the full cooldown on Mocking Challenge again.

Shield Block
Type of Feat: Class Ability
Prerequisites: Man-at-Arms 2nd level
Specifics: Your expertise with shields allows you to position it in such a way that a normally dangerous blow is deflected harmlessly. As you gain experience your competence with shield blocking increases and you gain additional shield AC while a shield is equipped. +1 at second level, +2 at 11th level, +3 at 21st level and +4 at 30th Man-at-Arms level. This bonus AC stacks with any permanent enchantment present on your shield or other forms of shield AC.
Use: Automatic
The AC bonus does not reapply itself after you have recovered from being knocked unconcious or died. This is a serious issue as you will potentially lose +4 AC without knowing it, which can be the difference between surviving or dying. This should be an easy fix since it functions in much the same way as Heavy Armor Optimization, which does not suffer from this issue.

(The Shield Specialization feats also seem to be affected by this issue)
Last edited by mireigi on Fri Sep 20, 2013 11:01 am, edited 5 times in total.
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Rasael
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Re: List of Man-at-arms bugs and issues

Unread post by Rasael »

I have posted this in QC for you :)
Thank you for taking the time to provide feedback :D
A few of the things you mentioned are indeed as designed, we will consider them again)
Azmodeth
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Re: List of Man-at-arms bugs and issues

Unread post by Azmodeth »

Wow.. wheres the "Like" button or the "add reputation button" for this guy..

+1 on listing those bugs.

However, some of your proposed changes seem very strong, too strong. But not uber OP just a tad bit.

I really think (have not played the class mind you) that the abilities should have spate cooldaown, so that they do not undermine their effectiveness or rp value or combatitive value.
The only thing that should work one at a time is a bard song IMO...

couldn't you guard someone and look intimidating and ready to dish out punishment while keep an open eye on those around you, within a moments grasp, who might need a brief rescue ?

I think so. juts my 2c
Azmodeth - Retired Frostmage, Abandoned all she had and left without warning.

http://www.bgtscc.net/viewtopic.php?f=1 ... g&start=30
mireigi
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Re: List of Man-at-arms bugs and issues

Unread post by mireigi »

Thank you both for the support. It is a really fun class to play, it is just sad to see these bugs and issues becomming a major problem as you gain levels and some abilities become obsolete while others force you to OOCly explain why someone need to rest :)
Azmodeth wrote:However, some of your proposed changes seem very strong, too strong. But not uber OP just a tad bit.

I really think (have not played the class mind you) that the abilities should have spate cooldaown, so that they do not undermine their effectiveness or rp value or combatitive value.
Adjusting so all the abilities no longer share cooldown would be a big step in the right direction. The numbers I proposed certainly need some adjusting, but unless I have miscalculated, the changes will mean that Demoralize Opponent and Daunting Challenge will reduce enemy AB by 20% and 12% respectively at all levels. Again, this might be too strong, but the flat -2 AB and -1 AB for those abilities is a joke when facing enemies with 30+ AB, so they need to scale with level somehow.
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c2k
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Re: List of Man-at-arms bugs and issues

Unread post by c2k »

I'm pretty sure any bug regarding Rescue and Guarding the Lord is an OEI bug. They might not be able to be fixed, or the fix might take far too much trouble for what its worth. OEI bugs are usually only dealt with if the opportunity arises where they can easily be fixed.
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Re: List of Man-at-arms bugs and issues

Unread post by Rasael »

Regular Challenge: You gain an attack bonus, damage increase, and will save increase, of up to +6. Scales with your MaA level. You can only challenge an opponent once per fight. The effects last for five rounds + your charisma modifier. I believe Challenge has a 6 second cooldown. Every challenge ability runs of the same cooldown. (except for call to battle I think)


Demoralizing Challenge: Currently reduces STR, DEX, all savingthrows and attack by 1. Lasts until the target rests.
Daunting Challenge: does the same thing in an AoE

They stack. This is a fairly good thing if you party with people, because it means their abilities and spells become harder for the monster to save against.
If you hit a creature with both, it should also go into a panic. Meaning that it is hit with an additional fear effect.

Call to Battle: Gives temp hitpoints equal to your MaA level. Double that amount if the recipient is at or below half HP. (until rest) And a bonus on all fear saves equal to the MaA's charisma modifier, for the subject. (minute per MaA level) The MaA himself becomes immune to fear. (until rest)

Mocking Challenge: Creatures have to pass a Will save of DC 15 + half MaA levels + charisma modifier, or switch targets to you, and attack you. This may interrupt their current actions. (such as casting spells)
mireigi
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Re: List of Man-at-arms bugs and issues

Unread post by mireigi »

Rasael wrote:Demoralizing Challenge: Currently reduces STR, DEX, all savingthrows and attack by 1. Lasts until the target rests.
Daunting Challenge: does the same thing in an AoE

They stack. This is a fairly good thing if you party with people, because it means their abilities and spells become harder for the monster to save against.
If you hit a creature with both, it should also go into a panic. Meaning that it is hit with an additional fear effect.
Could this info at least be updated in the description for both spells? Currently it doesn't state what they do.

I still feel like both abilities are weak at later levels though. Essentially you are looking at a class that is like a highlevel fighter, but should be built like a monk (taking many levels in the class), limiting multiclass potential. Something should be done to increase the potency of a pure build, even if it only includes removing shared cooldown on Challenges.
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mireigi
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Re: List of Man-at-arms bugs and issues

Unread post by mireigi »

--- Updated after further testing ---

Challenge
Type of Feat: Class Ability
Prerequisites: Man-at-Arms 1st level
Specifics: "Your dauntless fighting spirit plays a major role in your fighting style, as important as the strength of your arm or the sharpness of your blade. In battle, you use the force of your personality to challenge your enemies. You can call out a foe, shouting a challenge that boosts his confidence or issueing a general challenge that strikes fear into weak opponents and compels strong opponents to seek you out for personal combat. By playing on your enemies' ego, you can manipulate your foes."You can issue a challenge to an enemy, gaining a +1 bonus on Will saves, attack rolls, and damage rolls. The effect lasts for a number of rounds equal to 5 + your Charisma modifier (if any). At 7th level, the bonus you gain from this ability increases to +2. At 13th level, it rises to +3. At 19th level, it increases to +4. At 25th level, it increases to +5. At 30th level, it increases to +6. You can't issue any another such challenge until designated the opponent has been defeated or fled. (affecting this ability only)
Use: Selected
Works exactly as specified, but the duration is too short against many of the more powerful enemies such as Dragons, Balors and other epic monsters. It should be possible to use this ability against the same enemy for as long as it is standing. Otherwise the bonuses granted will only be useful for the first 5 to 10 rounds, which is not long enough against most of the epic monsters, even with a good party.

Also, if you do PvP and lose after using the ability, you cannot use it again until you have rested or the character you PvPed against have either died to monsters or lost in PvP.

--- Update ---
I did some further testing and this ability does not become usable even after your target flees. Maybe I am reading the flee part wrong, but I would naturally assume that scaring an enemy away would constitute it as the enemy have fled. Yet the ability does not become useable if the target it was used on is feared in any way (Demoralize Opponent + Daunting Challenge causes panic and fear in the target, so it should reset).
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Rasael
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Re: List of Man-at-arms bugs and issues

Unread post by Rasael »

Good catch)
We are discussing about the re-use bit
mireigi
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Re: List of Man-at-arms bugs and issues

Unread post by mireigi »

--- Updated after further testing ---

Daunting Challenge
Type of Feat: Class Ability
Prerequisites: Man-at-Arms 12th level
Specifics: Starting at 12th level, a Man-at-Arms can issue a daunting challenge as a free action. Like a test of mettle, this is a general challenge to all foes within 100 feet. Affected creatures must make Will saves (DC 15 + 1/2 man-at-arms level + Cha modifier). Creatures that fail this save are shaken. Already demoralized creatures can also become shaken, suffering both effects causes panic.
Use: Selected
It is not listed in the description, but it applies a -1 AB penalty to all enemies in range if they fail the save. This causes the same issues with lack of power at later levels as with Demoralize Opponent.

I propose that the AB penalty scales with level, based on the following:

Code: Select all

Level | AB Penalty
12    | AB penalty of 3 + Charisma modifier / 3, rounded down
21    | AB penalty of 3 + Charisma modifier / 2, rounded down
30    | AB penalty of 3 + Charisma modifier
--- Update ---
I did some more testing and I have found a gameplay issue for this ability. There is no indication on those who fail their save, that they have failed it. When fighting multiple enemies, often with similar or matching names, you will not know if it was enemy A or B who failed the save. This makes it impossible to combine the ability with Demoralize Opponent to fear an enemy away, and thus reduce pressure on you and those you travel with. Also, there is no indication of when the effects run out. The lack of indication also applies to Demoralize Opponent, but is more severe for this ability.
Fhaeo'Lingi Mriht'Ess - Akh'Aegis of EDE
Tolan Faeglin - Morninglord of Lathander
Phar Anlith - Mercenary, Tracker, Information Broker
Adoros Battleheart - Ungraceful battlerager
Cain Gellantara - Knight Champion of Tempus
Davvry - Sneaks
mireigi
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Re: List of Man-at-arms bugs and issues

Unread post by mireigi »

--- Added issues for other abilities / feats ---

Shield Block
Type of Feat: Class Ability
Prerequisites: Man-at-Arms 2nd level
Specifics: Your expertise with shields allows you to position it in such a way that a normally dangerous blow is deflected harmlessly. As you gain experience your competence with shield blocking increases and you gain additional shield AC while a shield is equipped. +1 at second level, +2 at 11th level, +3 at 21st level and +4 at 30th Man-at-Arms level. This bonus AC stacks with any permanent enchantment present on your shield or other forms of shield AC.
Use: Automatic
The AC bonus does not reapply itself after you have recovered from being knocked unconcious or died. This is a serious issue as you will potentially lose +4 AC without knowing it, which can be the difference between surviving or dying. This should be an easy fix since it functions in much the same way as Heavy Armor Optimization, which does not suffer from this issue.

(The Shield Specialization feats also seem to be affected by this issue)
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Luna
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Re: List of Man-at-arms bugs and issues

Unread post by Luna »

You need to rest and it will re-apply.
Most of the custom passive feats are like this.
Not just man-at-arms but across the board.
mireigi
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Re: List of Man-at-arms bugs and issues

Unread post by mireigi »

Luna wrote:You need to rest and it will re-apply.
Most of the custom passive feats are like this.
Not just man-at-arms but across the board.
I know, but it should be possible to fix. It is not always possible to fix it by resting as it will either be an OOC rest or you have 15+ minutes cooldown on your next rest. Unequipping your shield while in combat to fix it (after getting ressurected) can be even more dangerous as you will lose up to an additional 8 AC (Tower Shield +4).

If it is not possible to fix, then so be it, but this class is highly centered on AC, so anything that breaks AC is a big deal.
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Re: List of Man-at-arms bugs and issues

Unread post by Luna »

It's a big job to fix all the passive feats, yes. :|
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Re: List of Man-at-arms bugs and issues

Unread post by Nomster »

You should be getting raised in a reasonably safe area. Coming back with 1 HP in a hostile area is silly. Most people who come back from death usually need a rest anyway, spells and whatnot.

And un-equipping and re-equipping your shield should only take a few seconds.
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