Amnian Lore

[kleomenes]

I thought I'd split off the discussion on the early history of Amn to a new thread as its derailing the main thread

1 - on point (1) I think you are misreading the source material which I supplied you with. The source material clearly writes that a significant drow invasion was occurring in the given time period (-790 and -530 DR). The independence of Tethyr is partly tied into that, but for our purposes is irrelevant because of the Shoon Empire's incorporation of Tethyr and the later union of those two crowns.

Just to clarify, the drow incursions of -790 to -540 DR are mentioned on page 23 of Lands of Intrigue book one, in a bit more detail. The lands mentioned (the areas around Omlarandin Mountains and the Kuldin Peaks) are currently in Eastern Tethyr and it is clear that what lost Calimsham the control was rising local resistance in the wake of the waning of the drow attacks. The implication is perhaps that the need to fight drow raiders caused a growth in nationalist settlment.

This resistance is what inspires the spartacus style revolt in the rest of Tethyr that sees slaves flee to the Purple Hills and then the Dragon's Neck Penninsula. This period lasts between -670Dr to -370 DR and is the ethnogenisis of the Tethyrian people, the creation of barbaric warrior "clans". It is these clans that, in a series of invasions overthrow the Calishite empire in Tethyr (page 24, 25 lands of intrigue book 1) in a process which lasts nearly 200 years. It is the rise of the Ithal Dynasty and the surrender of Tethyr to Darrom Ithal in -212 DR which spells the end of Calisham's control of the north.

Note that Page 17 of Book 2 of lands of intrigue book 2 makes clear that Calimsham's empire at this period had little in what was to become Amn, just a few hunting lodges, and no one really cared about the region until the Shoon

The Drow incursion is relevant because it is only during the reign of the (Calimshan-)Shoon dynasty that this damage and loss of territory is finally undone. The instigator of that loss were the Drow, who openly attacked frontier garrisons, patrols, villages, cities and armies.

As such, the drow raids are:
a: not the direct cause of the fall of the empire, by a good 300 years
b: not relevant to Amn

That it also enabled Tethyr to become independant is irrelevant because the point is that most loyal Shoon officials -which incorporated Tethyr at the time- and many citizens migrated/fled to Amn in the aftermath of Shoon's fall. The Tethyrians did not.

The Shoon thus carry with them a legacy to Amn of fighting to regain control of lost territory, a legacy and history in which Drow are the number one villain. Especially since the first Amnian King is a former Shoon general, that military history seems quite relevant to me.

This is a bit of a strange thing to say - the instigators of the fall of the Shoon were the Tethyrians. The ruins of Shoonach are a testament to the brutality and ruthlessness of Strohm I (an elf! but the modern Tethyrians think he was human and only under an illusion to hide among the elves), at the end of the burning of Shoonach (450 DR) the entire imperial family had been killed and many high ranking officials and army commanders had died. (lands of intrigue book 1, page 31).

Are you seriously saying the Shoon survivors were thinking "curse those drow, who nearly a thousand years ago weakened the eastern garrisons of a previous calishite dynasty, which let the locals become automonous and thus gave Tethyrians thoughts of independence which they then brought to fruition, only for us to take it away again and for them to rise up once more! This is all the DROWs fault!"

rather than

"Curse these Tethyrian savages, their brutality shows how barbarous they still are! Vengeance on them!"

You will note modern Amnians don't hate Tethyrians on a cultural level (despite rivalry between the states) This is because Amnians are known for not caring about history. (See the quote of King Haedrak III at the top of page 17, Lands of intrigue book 2). Their country is new - because they regard it as commencing with the rule of the council of six in 1333 DR, the previous monarchy having collapsed in 1306 DR.

It would stretch credibility for ancestral hatreds to factor in Amnian decision making

There is no reason at all (which I am aware of) to argue that the Shoon do not know who the former dynasties were fighting in -790 and -530 DR. Lands of Intrigue does not write that the Shoon or previous dynasties of Calimshan forgot that it was the Drow who launched such a savage attack.

It also doesnt say they really care, given that the empire survived the attacks by 300 years

They are more likely to hate Cormyreans for breaking the imperial adventures of Lord Ashar Tornann who led the northern armies of the Shoon (based in whats to become Amn) onto the Fields of the Dead and as far as the High Moor in 335 DR. Azouin I kicked him about on the fields of the dead then went as far south as to burn Ithmong ((336 DR)) as a warning to the Shoon. ((Lands of Intrige book 2 page 20))

This is all focused on Amnian / Tethyrian history. Should we continue the drow discussion here as well?

[Rasael]

Just to clarify, the drow incursions of -790 to -540 DR are mentioned on page 23 of Lands of Intrigue book one, in a bit more detail. The lands mentioned (the areas around Omlarandin Mountains and the Kuldin Peaks) are currently in Eastern Tethyr and it is clear that what lost Calimsham the control was rising local resistance in the wake of the waning of the drow attacks. The implication is perhaps that the need to fight drow raiders caused a growth in nationalist settlment.

This resistance is what inspires the spartacus style revolt in the rest of Tethyr that sees slaves flee to the Purple Hills and then the Dragon's Neck Penninsula. This period lasts between -670Dr to -370 DR and is the ethnogenisis of the Tethyrian people, the creation of barbaric warrior "clans". It is these clans that, in a series of invasions overthrow the (Calimshan) empire in Tethyr (page 24, 25 lands of intrigue book 1) in a process which lasts nearly 200 years. It is the rise of the Ithal Dynasty and the surrender of Tethyr to Darrom Ithal in -212 DR which spells the end of Calisham's control of the north.

Note that Page 17 of Book 2 of lands of intrigue book 2 makes clear that Calimsham's empire at this period had little in what was to become Amn, just a few hunting lodges, and no one really cared about the region until the Shoon

Page 23 (Lands of Intrigue) writes this, literally:

Between -790 and -530 DR, Calimshan faced its toughest enemy in centuries when drow attacks began against the garrisons and towns of eastern Tethyr and Iltkazar. Organized resistance by native dwarves and humans grew as the attacks waned, and by -650 DR, the areas around the Omlarandin Mountains and the Kuldin Peaks (the lands of Old Iltkazar) were independent of Calishite control. Though imperial troops fought skirmishes with the locals for centuries as Calishites did against the dwarves, they did not fall under foreign control again until the Shoon Empire.

Learning of the rumors of strife and resistance in the east, many enslaved human natives of Tethyr escaped captivity between -670 and -370 DR and fled north. One of the greatest escapes was led by a Keltaran agricultural slave named Ankar.

The text is quite clear that the Drow and not the Tethyrian rebels are the enemy which gave Calimshan a run for their money. The Tethyrians were only able to rebel because the Drow were that much trouble. Keep in mind the romans butchered Spartacus, while tethyr succeeded because the Drow were just that tough that Calimshan(Rome) was by then too weak to stop them. See also book two on Amn's history (Lands of Intrigue), which even more explicitly says that the Drow are to thank for Tethyrian independence.

The Drow incursion is relevant because it is only during the reign of the (Calimshan-)Shoon dynasty that this damage and loss of territory is finally undone. The instigator of that loss were the Drow, who openly attacked frontier garrisons, patrols, villages, cities and armies.

As such, the drow raids are:
a: not the direct cause of the fall of the empire, by a good 300 years
b: not relevant to Amn

What you write is besides the point because were discussing Drow, not tethyrian independence, or whether Amn views Tethyr negatively.

The point in question was how Amnians feel about Drow. Which given that the loyal Shoon (Calimshan) fled to the Amn region and founded Amn, means they carry with them the history of Drow attacks on Calimshan. Which according to the text of Lands of Intrigue were a very help let Tethyr become independent, yes. The text explicitly says as much when it writes that Tethyr is free only because the Drow attacked Calimshan, they have the Drow to to thank for their freedom.

That it also enabled Tethyr to become independant is irrelevant because the point is that most loyal Shoon officials -which incorporated Tethyr at the time- and many citizens migrated/fled to Amn in the aftermath of Shoon's fall. The Tethyrians did not.

The Shoon thus carry with them a legacy to Amn of fighting to regain control of lost territory, a legacy and history in which Drow are the number one villain. Especially since the first Amnian King is a former Shoon general, that military history seems quite relevant to me.

This is a bit of a strange thing to say - the instigators of the fall of the Shoon were the Tethyrians. The ruins of Shoonach are a testament to the brutality and ruthlessness of Strohm I (an elf! but the modern Tethyrians think he was human and only under an illusion to hide among the elves), at the end of the burning of Shoonach (450 DR) the entire imperial family had been killed and many high ranking officials and army commanders had died. (lands of intrigue book 1, page 31).

Are you seriously saying the Shoon survivors were thinking "curse those drow, who nearly a thousand years ago weakened the eastern garrisons of a previous (#2) dynasty, which let the locals become automonous and thus gave Tethyrians thoughts of independence which they then brought to fruition, only for us to take it away again and for them to rise up once more! This is all the DROWs fault!"

rather than

"Curse these Tethyrian savages, their brutality shows how barbarous they still are! Vengeance on them!"

You will note modern Amnians don't hate Tethyrians on a cultural level (despite rivalry between the states) This is because Amnians are known for not caring about history. (See the quote of King Haedrak III at the top of page 17, Lands of intrigue book 2). Their country is new - because they regard it as commencing with the rule of the council of six in 1333 DR, the previous monarchy having collapsed in 1306 DR.

It would stretch credibility for ancestral hatreds to factor in Amnian decision making

See the point above, you are misunderstanding what I wrote. I did not mean that Amn or the Shoon migrants are actively nursing a simmering hatred for Drow, or for Tethyr. What I wrote was that that they carry with them the Shoon (Calimshan) history and military records. A Shoon general became King of Amn.

They know who they've been fighting for roughly 300 years, allowing Tethyr to revolt: the Drow.

That makes the circumstances very inconducive to saying that Amnians tolerate Drow in a general sense. They tolerate doing business with Drow. But that is something entirely different from tolerating their presence in general. As in: how nice, Drow as neighbours. or Oh look: A drow couple shopping in the bazaar! How cute!

There is no reason at all (which I am aware of) to argue that the Shoon do not know who the former dynasties were fighting in -790 and -530 DR. Lands of Intrigue does not write that the Shoon or previous dynasties of Calimshan forgot that it was the Drow who launched such a savage attack.

It also doesnt say they really care, given that the empire survived the attacks by 300 years

They are more likely to hate Cormyreans for breaking the imperial adventures of Lord Ashar Tornann who led the northern armies of the Shoon (based in whats to become Amn) onto the Fields of the Dead and as far as the High Moor in 335 DR. Azouin I kicked him about on the fields of the dead then went as far south as to burn Ithmong ((336 DR)) as a warning to the Shoon. ((Lands of Intrige book 2 page 20))

This is all focused on Amnian / Tethyrian history. Should we continue the drow discussion here as well?

Again, how Amn feels about Cormyr, Tethyr, or anyone else was beside the point. It doesn't matter who they are likely to hate, or hate more.

Its enough to be aware that the Drow are a terrible threat, which gave Calimshan a big scare and occupied their imperial attentions for 300 years of vicious war.

If that doesn't show you that Amnians would be aware of just how vicious, untrustworthy and downright dangerous Drow are, then I don't know what will.

I will stick with my position that the book Lands of Intrigue is spot on when it writes this:

Amnians are quite open with and tolerant of races and creeds with whom they do business. Everyone is a potential customer or client, and deserves to be treated as such within the normal bounds of propriety. A richly dressed illithid gets better treatment than a shabby dwarf any day. Of course, this openness is guarded, and an Amnian of means always has an escort of at least two guards. Tolerance for the sake of business is never overshadowed by fear of the dangers of a deal gone wrong.

The requirement for being tolerant is business. It doesn't say anything about letting Drow walk around on the surface unmolested and unhurt. Nor about letting Illithid, goblins or Orcs do such a thing.

Amn has laws against killing humans and halflings. Possibly also against killing dwarves. But not against killing Elves. And certainly not against killing Drow, Orcs, Ogers, Goblins or Yuan-ti and other monsters.

Which means its perfectly okay to kill them. You can do business with them as well, but be prepared for your reputation to suffer for doing so. You'd be associating with vicious mass murderers and slavers. People would doubt whether you're still even in control of yourself, or being blackmailed, puppeted or enchanted somehow. It'd be a scandal. Hence all the secrecy when dealing with Drow, and reputation loss for saving them (Viconia).

[Nomster]

There are a few points I'd like to make. It is difficult to compare Amn with Tethyr, even if they shared some history in the past they differ greatly. Amnians mentality is strange and probably quite foreign to most people. They care very little for history, these guys can't even remember why they dislike wizards so much! (A wizard is at best met with suspicion or persecuted). Sort of mentioned before already but the lore in the Baldur's Gate game deviates from what is written in Lands of Intrigue, the Cowled Wizards are outlaws and being ousted means death.


There is very little offered on the actual law of Amn. Only that "the law is blinded by the glint of gold" in Athkatla. Amn has in the past captured full blooded orcs and let them work in labour camps, after 30 years they were given freedom and allowed to marry with humans. This second generation (half-orcs) were given citizenship. They are -not- treated as slaves or monsters and while they do have citizenship, they are not fully accepted but still... Citizenship and better treatment than elsewhere. From monsters to citizens. (Lands of Intrigue p3 & p21)


As for the population in whole, humans and halflings are in the majority. Elves and dwarves are rare but are quoted to live in a few towns and having enterprises. I doubt they are persecuted or seen as lesser beings (I'd think it would have said that if it were they case, instead of them doing business, you don't let races considered as scum own an enterprise).


I don't believe drow (or illithids) are actually living and walking about in Amn openly (the book would have surely mentioned that, if it was the case). But if one was found wandering about, rather than pitchforks and a bonfire, I'd say it would be asked "So, what do you have to offer..". But that is an assumption, and those can be dangerous at times!


Appearance is everything in Amn. Not how wealthy someone is are but how wealthy they seem to be. Wealth is not measured in how much coin is in the treasure room but how much they spend. So, if an illithid is better dressed than a dwarf... it means it is more wealthy, thus more important and more worthwhile to conduct trade with ;P



Hugging orcs, drow and whatnot,
Depending on which sources you use... some sources say a good aligned character should approach orcs, goblins and drow with an open mind and heart. They're usually evil, not "always" evil so they should be given a chance to redeem themselves. Which would include illithids as well, as they're not "always" evil. I have not dug into drow books or books specifying drow in Faerûn however, but some food for thought (its from Exalted Deeds p8).

[Larzs]

(its from Exalted Deeds p8).

Exalted Deeds...ugh, that book. While, I know the DM Manual does mention that "not always" rule, that was more placed on PC and perhaps special NPCs. For the most part...if something is evil...it is evil. If you want to give such creature an "open heart" expect to be stabbed in it...

[Nomster]

I posted it in a "food for thought" way, I know people would disagree with what is written in that source book because it is quite extreme. Its the best guide for role playing good I've come across though and until its on a list of books not supported by the server...

[Rasael]

There are a few points I'd like to make. It is difficult to compare Amn with Tethyr, even if they shared some history in the past they differ greatly. Amnians mentality is strange and probably quite foreign to most people. They care very little for history, these guys can't even remember why they dislike wizards so much! (A wizard is at best met with suspicion or persecuted). Sort of mentioned before already but the lore in the Baldur's Gate game deviates from what is written in Lands of Intrigue, the Cowled Wizards are outlaws and being ousted means death.

Good points, but we should add here that Lands of Intrigue specifically mentions that they forgot why they hate magic. It does not mention that Amn forgot other things relevant to its past. It is true that they are not very interested in history, but that does not mean they do not know anything about fighting Drow historically. There is an important military distinction there. The Golden Legion for example is quite apt tactically precisely because it (normally) considers knowing the enemy important. As any decent commander would think. The Amnish are not inept, they just tend to make a cost / benefit analysis regarding subjects that'd be worthwhile pursuing. Military history is obviously one of those subjects, as is commerce and diplomacy.

There is very little offered on the actual law of Amn. Only that "the law is blinded by the glint of gold" in Athkatla. Amn has in the past captured full blooded orcs and let them work in labour camps, after 30 years they were given freedom and allowed to marry with humans. This second generation (half-orcs) were given citizenship. They are -not- treated as slaves or monsters and while they do have citizenship, they are not fully accepted but still... Citizenship and better treatment than elsewhere. From monsters to citizens. (Lands of Intrigue p3 & p21)

Very true but domesticating Orcs is very different from dealing with Drow. Apples and oranges. Especially if you know the Shoon spent the better part of 300 years fighting Drow and considered it a very tough challenge. There's not been such a thing for Orcs in the history of Calimshan, shoon and otherwise, nor Amn.

As for the population in whole, humans and halflings are in the majority. Elves and dwarves are rare but are quoted to live in a few towns and having enterprises. I doubt they are persecuted or seen as lesser beings (I'd think it would have said that if it were they case, instead of them doing business, you don't let races considered as scum own an enterprise).

I don't believe drow (or illithids) are actually living and walking about in Amn openly (the book would have surely mentioned that, if it was the case). But if one was found wandering about, rather than pitchforks and a bonfire, I'd say it would be asked "So, what do you have to offer..". But that is an assumption, and those can be dangerous at times!

Appearance is everything in Amn. Not how wealthy someone is are but how wealthy they seem to be. Wealth is not measured in how much coin is in the treasure room but how much they spend. So, if an illithid is better dressed than a dwarf... it means it is more wealthy, thus more important and more worthwhile to conduct trade with ;P

I agree that Amnian's will consider dealing with Drow in secret. As well as with other monsters. But they'll also happily consider backstabbing them if the opportunity presents itself and seems to be worthwhile. The customer is only a monster in that case after all.

I think the more important part is being a Drow in public is likely to get you dragged to the stake and harassed by mobs. Which is as it should be given the reputation of the species in Faerun.

Hugging orcs, drow and whatnot,
Depending on which sources you use... some sources say a good aligned character should approach orcs, goblins and drow with an open mind and heart. They're usually evil, not "always" evil so they should be given a chance to redeem themselves. Which would include illithids as well, as they're not "always" evil. I have not dug into drow books or books specifying drow in Faerûn however, but some food for thought (its from Exalted Deeds p8).

I think you are reading that correctly but not interpreting it that way. What it says I think is simply that a good aligned character ought to keep an eye out for evil that can be redeemed and forgiven.

But that does not mean they will openly approach an Orc or carelessly disregard hug them. Trust and redemption have to be earned.

And this also leaves out of the equation matters in which the good aligned character ought to forgo a chance at redemption in favour of the greater good. How much weight does the chance that an Orc or Drow can be redeemed carry when it puts the life of a good servant or servants of the faith at stake? What if those servants are still needed for greater works of good? Is not very selfish then to take the risk?

To my mind the trick is knowing when you can afford to inquisitive and search for redemption. Most do-good characters won't take those chances often, especially not if the subject they are dealing with is almost 99% sure to be evil and trickery.

And there we see the meat and potatoes. Because most hugging ofcourse happens if you know the other character is controlled by a player. That is metagaming, because you should not treat players any differently from NPC's as regards possible redemption and hugs.

Viewed that way perhaps many of the situations were people "hug" orcs or drow are more like selfish quests to redeem monsters. Not actual real service to the cause of good, but purely motivated by selfish desires.

In my opinion Deities should punish such behaviour if it puts a quest or mission at risk.

[Darksider_war]

Hugging orcs, drow and whatnot,
Depending on which sources you use... some sources say a good aligned character should approach orcs, goblins and drow with an open mind and heart. They're usually evil, not "always" evil so they should be given a chance to redeem themselves. Which would include illithids as well, as they're not "always" evil. I have not dug into drow books or books specifying drow in Faerûn however, but some food for thought (its from Exalted Deeds p8).

This chapter of the Book of Exhalted Deeds is pure bollocks. There is Good and Good. Race, class and personality play a HUGE part in determining how to deal with similar situations. Were I to see a CG ranger of Shevarash befriending and trying to redeem drows instead of slaughtering them all, I would be severely distressed.

should

That conditional is the apex of the discussion. "Should" does not really equate to "must". THANKFULLY.

[Atlas]

-

[Hitman Hard]

If said adventurers are refusing to see the goodness behind the grey orc and will go to great-length to use societal prejudices to his advantage to increase the torment/ suffering of said orc then an alignment change is the only appropriate response. A good aligned character is allowed to role-play contempt of others, even races, but there is a fine line between what is necessary and what is downright cruel.

[Storm Munin]

A monster is... a MONSTER.

It isnt a innocent looking hungry hin knocking on your door because he ran out of spoons.

[Hitman Hard]

Eh, you need to read the attributed example, we're not discussing whether or not orcs look like monsters.

[arakes99]

Just because something doesn't charge you like a wild boar with bloodlust does not make it any less a threat if it is a creature well known for its evil intentions.

"Gray orcs are just as mean, savage, and barbaric as their northern cousins, but they lack the mountain orc's drive to conquer and enslave." NWN2 Wiki

A goodly Grey Orc would be one in a million, just like Drizzt, and people would be far more likely to assume that this lone, seemingly non hostile orc is a spy or worse if it is just hanging out near civilized lands. This concept of looking for the good in everyone and everything is the mindset of the current age and is very much a reflection of the ethos of modern culture. To apply this sort of logic to the functions of a world much more closely aligned to the middle ages makes very little sense. When the whole world is at war even a good man must kill. (think the crusades where how you looked and what you believed could most certainly get you killed).

People in general would be relatively savage and ignorant compared to the modern times, scraping by and lucky to be able to feed themselves people would be far less concerned about the inner goodness of a particular creature that looks like a monster. Injecting this extreme high morality into the situation does not fit the setting anymore than the assumption that anyone is hungry can walk down to the store and buy food or that if there is a bandit attack they will soon be tracked down using forensics and dealt with.

Now should people be killing the same orc over and over or hunting them down just to brutalize them? No, that's just poor sportsmanship and ruins the game. but when you chose to play a snowflake goodly orc do not ASSUME you are going to get to sit around and have the same RP interaction as civilized races. If you wanted to sit around and discuss philosophy and art an elf would have made a better choice. You should be as fearful of humans and elves as they are of you, even if you are goodly and any friendships developed with the goodly races should have a lot of long standing RP to back it up. But each new person you meet will likely consider you a threat and will not want you around. but that's no excuse for them killing you on the spot without substantial warning.

[Hitman Hard]

I don't think it's a moral high ground to assume adventurers should ignore the one peaceful grey orc and steer their attention back to the war bands of orcs that live in the Woods of Sharp Teeth.


I am not arguing the world but what i am saying is a good character won't slay a grey orc every time he sees one unless in war or threatening situations. He will try to figure it's motive or leave it alone, be it through politeness or caustic words. It goes back to having common sense and determining what is a threat and what is not and being essentially concerned with life despite it's lack of sentience, as per the book of exalted deeds.

[Storm Munin]

What you are implying in the today is that if my door bell rang and I saw through the keyhole that the smiling stranger is armed and dressed in a uniform known locally for wanton massmurder and pillaging. Why, the only thing I could do is open the door and invite him for coffee...if I wanted to stay good?

Sorry, but I dont see it.

[arakes99]

I am in full agreement that we don't grab the torch and pitchfork and kill it on the spot. But you would also not be keen on a conversation with it. You would tell it to leave and threaten it more than likely. It's the polarization we have that's the problem and orcs that think they can reason away peoples fear on the first meeting.

You can have fear and intolerance without violence, and the middle ground always makes for the best situation.