Shadowing, disguises, etc

[Ricastle]

I would some solid rules drafted. I've not been wronged in any means at least to MY knowledge, nor to my knowledge have any of these situations occurred to my character although they may well have.

People need specific reasons to tail or shadow people, I think it should be documented somewhere in advance. Random spying through transitions is poor form. If one intends to spy on another they should have to have a record of it with the days, dates, window they are going to spy on a specific person(s) in advance. There is no reason at all to follow people without intent through transitions which are miles apart (save in BG the city) unless they intend on spying on the persons.

Anyone can randomly follow people over hundred of miles of wilderness through game mechanics randomly without reason. If you are following someone and taking screenshots, you better have a good reason of tailing them in the first place. Screenshots in themselves are not nearly enough. I imagine there will be random occurances where people come across events, but if this becomes a pattern the DM staff will easily be able to discern who is being true to roleplay and who is randomly following people. Fishing , trolling to find people involved in one situation or another.

[DM Narshe]

http://www.bgtscc.net/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=39060
That's the link to our provisional disguise rules. Feel free to explore it and PM us any concerns about it.

Coordinating spy vs spy stuff would be an immense headache and timesink. First you'd have to OOCly know the other players playtimes, and they could easily not log in... wasting your time. I think that most spying is impromptu. You just happen to be in the right place at the right time. Or at least that's been my experience with it.

As for trailing someone for hundreds of miles, I think it's just as disbelieving someone would travel hundreds of miles on foot in several minutes. If player A can do it, why can't the trailing player B?

[Ricastle]

http://www.bgtscc.net/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=39060
That's the link to our provisional disguise rules. Feel free to explore it and PM us any concerns about it.

Coordinating spy vs spy stuff would be an immense headache and timesink. First you'd have to OOCly know the other players playtimes, and they could easily not log in... wasting your time. I think that most spying is impromptu. You just happen to be in the right place at the right time. Or at least that's been my experience with it.

As for trailing someone for hundreds of miles, I think it's just as disbelieving someone would travel hundreds of miles on foot in several minutes. If player A can do it, why can't the trailing player B?

I have a Hipser an a monk who has max speed. I can spy on anyone who does not have high detection. What is stopping me from camping in front of the radiant heart or darkhold or wherever and watching people enter the keep and taking screen shots? Or spying on lowbies who seem menacing waiting for them to create undead or say something incriminating?

I don't do this personally because I'm a responsible player who values roleplay and realism, but other people may not and do not. I know there is plenty of tomfoolery going around here still that is Player based and not IC based.

What I'm asking is that people make records of IC intentions to spy ahead of time. It would take very little effort for player to do so. I will spy on Player A or B for X weeks. That would eliminate a good portion of the shinanigans that do go on.

[DM Novus]

What I'm asking is that people make records of IC intentions to spy ahead of time. It would take very little effort for player to do so. I will spy on Player A or B for X weeks. That would eliminate a good portion of the shinanigans that do go on.

The Players and Guilds that make serious, in-character use of spying and Information gathering, DO keep good records...you just cannot see them because you are: a) not in the Guild and do not have Forum privileges; b) you are not a DM.

When compromising information is used for one groups advantage over another—or in PC vs PC situations—the DM Team makes doubly sure the information is gathered and used legitimately.

If not = retconn or OOC punishment.

There are plenty of means available to protect PCs from spies. Best ask the spymasters themselves, because it is my opinion not only do they know best how to get Information, they know good ways to keep Information secret — and their meetings as well.

[Deathgrowl]

Why is spying on random people poor form or not legitimate RP? If you come across someone at random that you think look interesting, why not follow them? Why invalidate the RP of simply following someone random out of curiosity? I have lots and lots of fun on Nëa by following entirely random people around, watching them RP (or sometimes not RP, unfortunately), watching them fight monsters and bandits, eavesdropping on their conversations and so on. I don't mark people OOCly and then follow them around. I stumble across someone interesting while sneaking around and then start following.

So no. I don't think you should enforce all spying and following to be preplanned. That would take away a lot of fun. And it would end up being an OOC measure to avoid being spied on, avoid having someone randomly overhear your sinister plans. You can't control everything.

But you can, as Novus says, protect your PC from spies if you want. I know several ways!

[Hitman Hard]

Agree with Deathgrowl's post. Spying is often a spontaneous occurrence predicated by seeing suspicious signs or sheer instinct by the PC.

Assuming players aren't playing their sheets without probable insight into the matter is just bad for business and not conductive to the PW.

[Darksider_war]

As long as the spies don't whine OOCly about getting wasted with no rp-out after having been caught spying, I'm alright with "random" attempts at espionage. Most of the times wherein I caught a spy trying to eavesdrop on my characters evolved into absolutely entertaining moments like the player of the spy either mysteriously logging off, whining about getting godmodded, or whining for having been instashotted. I want that fun to continue!

[Torgerias]

I'm pretty sure the staff have already said that being caught spying is not by itself consent to pvp and that an RP out still must be given the last time this thread popped up...

[Darksider_war]

I'm pretty sure the staff have already said that being caught spying is not by itself consent to pvp and that an RP out still must be given the last time this thread popped up...

I've been told exactly the opposite. Especially if you catch someone spying on you with weapons drawn

[Torgerias]

Here it is, it seems I misremembered it a bit:

OOC:

Spying is consent to PVP, since it is by its very definition a hostile action (usually spies are acquiring information on another character to use against them):

Going into stealth mode or Hiding in Plain Sight right in front of someone can be regarded as highly suspicious and hostile and is therefore consenting to PvP, UNLESS the stealthing player roleplays it as a non-hostile action. A way to RP non-hostility is with an explanation such as, "I now go into the shadows," which indicates that you are merely leaving.

Note that this only refers to spying through invisibility or stealth mode. Literally hiding in plain sight, like sitting at a nearby table while your PC goes on and on about their super secret plots is not consent to PVP. Only actively spying via mechanics, so as to go entirely undetected, counts as consent to PVP if caught.

IC:

You'd have to prove a character was spying on you, and that's not an easy case to make unless you have witnesses and corroborating evidence. If it's just your word against theirs, and you beat them senseless inside a city, you may end up looking like the bad guy.

Generally individual IC responses and consequences for PVPing a spy will be handled at the responding DM's discretion. If no DM is around, take screenshots and send them in so that we can review them and decide on a course of action.

EDIT: Here is the thread, which already has a lot of useful discussion.

[Aelcar]

I'm pretty sure the staff have already said that being caught spying is not by itself consent to pvp and that an RP out still must be given the last time this thread popped up...

If you are talking about people casually standing by and listening to Bob revealing his vital, secret plans at the campfire, it's not spying, it's idiocy.

For spying here we intend spying on competent people who will take care to be alone, thus you need to conceal yourself (Hide/Invisibility) in order to overhear them. If you do that, and they blast your bits directly to Myrkul's porch, they're perfectly within server rules, as direct corollary to this:

Going into stealth mode or Hiding in Plain Sight right in front of someone can be regarded as highly suspicious and hostile and is therefore consenting to PvP, UNLESS the stealthing player roleplays it as a non-hostile action. A way to RP non-hostility is with an explanation such as, "I now go into the shadows," which indicates that you are merely leaving.

Being in stealth around people WILL be regarded as highly suspicious and hostile. Most of all if your "non-hostile" action is remain undetected and overhear.

[ghostly_rose]

I completly agree with Deathgrowl. I really don't understand why you would want people to plan in advance who they want to spy on. For me it has always been a spur of the moment sort fo thing. Sure there are some I've been following for ages but sometimes I just happen to come across an interesting group and decide to follow them. Plus a chaotic person just dosen't follow plans!

[Deathgrowl]

As long as the spies don't whine OOCly about getting wasted with no rp-out after having been caught spying, I'm alright with "random" attempts at espionage. Most of the times wherein I caught a spy trying to eavesdrop on my characters evolved into absolutely entertaining moments like the player of the spy either mysteriously logging off, whining about getting godmodded, or whining for having been instashotted. I want that fun to continue!

Sure. However, in some cases (surprisingly often, unfortunately), godmoding happens:
1. People see the transition flash of eventual buffs and react to that. That happens WAY too often, regardless of whether you're hiding or not.
2. People react to sneaks by listening to the sound effects of foot steps without having even close to enough listen or spot skill to detect the sneak. This also happens far too often. I wish there was a way of removing those foot step sounds.
3. If a person detects with listen (and not spot), they're not actually seeing the person and can't identify him/her, and certainly not know whether there are weapons drawn or not. Yet some people RP both identifying the sneak and knowing of the drawn weapons. This isn't quite as common a problem. And it is only partially problematic, considering they will know there is someone hiding regardless.

[Ricastle]

I completly agree with Deathgrowl. I really don't understand why you would want people to plan in advance who they want to spy on. For me it has always been a spur of the moment sort fo thing. Sure there are some I've been following for ages but sometimes I just happen to come across an interesting group and decide to follow them. Plus a chaotic person just dosen't follow plans!

Hey Ghostly Rose .

DM Novus stated how DM's use the information, etc that I was completely unaware of. I'll just leave it at that.

[ohboy007]

Haha, she's talking about me....Tommy was trailing her yesterday.