Needed Advice for a Necromancer build

[Ilron]

Hello, everyone.

Two, or maybe three years ago, I first joined the server and one of the character's I stayed most with was my human necromancer Nekros. But at the time I didn't know much on how/what works, especially with casters, and due to these mistakes I have a feeling I should RCR him. It will be painful, because leveling a pale master is like playing on Hardcore Mode, if you're on the surface. Maybe I'm just impatient. Luckily he's level 15 so it's not too horrible.

Anywho, the character is currently a level 6 wizard and level 8 pale master. He is specialized in the school of Necromancy. Took PM too early, I know. But that's not all - I didn't distribute the stats well when I rolled him.

Like I said, he's level 15 and without items/spells his stats stand as:

8STR
13DEX
16CON
19INT
9WIS
12CHA

My intended build for Nekros was 10 Wizard/10 Pale Master/10 Arcane Scholar. But if anyone has better suggestions, please tell me - maybe you could share some builds online or some such. I would like to be able to both summon undead and blast spells. In addition, I would greatly appreciate it if anyone could recommend feat and skill choices. If anyone thinks he doesn't need an RCR and the build isn't broken, please point that out as well.

Thanks to anyone and everyone who would spend the time of their day to help me.

P.S. Yes, I'll change his name - I have a feeling that trigger-happy people meta-game when they see "Nekros" in the player list to purposely find and hunt him down without IC knowledge, like they just coincidentally found him(which happened way too often).

P.P.S. As a necromancer, it's difficult to find people to level with, so if anyone wants to lend support or knows specific people who wouldn't mind being supportive, I'll be happy flappy.

[Deathgrowl]

Sort of depends on what you want the build to do. ASoC isn't really a great choice for DC builds for instance. I am currently leveling a DC built necromancer in the underdark with the following split
wizard16/palemaster10/archmage4.

But that kind of build relies on save vs lose effects (fear, finger of death, wail of the banshee...). If you want to do direct damage instead, ASoC is a good choice. But why then a necromancer?

I'll try to make a build for you when you decide which one it is.

P.P.S. As a necromancer, it's difficult to find people to level with, so if anyone wants to lend support or knows specific people who wouldn't mind being supportive, I'll be happy flappy.

Why is it difficult to find people to level with? If you're in a group, why would you bother with the undeads? And if you don't have your undeads out and about, you're just another wizard. Give your minions (undeads or PCs, they're still your minions. You're an evil wizard!) buffs to make them killing machines, then watch them destroy your enemies. And if there's too many enemies, you help out with some control spells, maybe even an AoE damage spell like firebrand.

Further, if you need to have a summon, why not just use one of the Summon Creature spells? Yeah, I know, the undeads are cooler (the PM 9 and 10 vampires are amazing because of the regen), but only stupid wizards reveal their evilness before they can back it up with power.

[Ilron]

First of all, thanks for the reply.

I think my choice would become easier if I'd have a rough idea on what types of PMs work best. You mentioned your own build (wiz16/pm10/am4). How's that build going for you?

My DnD knowledge is pretty weak, so my choices and decisions mostly come from inspirations and RP reasoning, without technical knowledge. I need guidance, so maybe you could give me some examples as to what kind of builds are powerful and what play-style they function in?

If you want to do direct damage instead, ASoC is a good choice. But why then a necromancer?

"Pale master" makes me think of a powerful wizard that summons hordes of undead, evokes fear and blasts magic. However, the way I understand it, you're saying that necromancers don't go well as DC. Could you explain a bit about how you think a pale master should function?

Regarding support, of course, I join the occasional band of strangers, but then I have to avoid using my PM abilities, which at this point I'm heavily dependant on. So it makes me nearly useless. And for the times when I try to solo, a creature summon is too weak, so I must use my minion. What I meant was, it'd be nice to meet like-minded people who don't scowl at necromancers.

[Deathgrowl]

I am having good fun with my wizard/pm/archmage. Currently wizard9/pm7. Will take four archmage levels next up to level 20, then go wizard levels with the remaining three PM levels spread out.

It ends up with 31 + Spell Level DC in necromancy, which means Wail of the Banshee at DC 40 and Finger of Death at DC 38. Fear at DC 35.

It's a bit slow to level, since I decided to take so many PM levels before epic (I want the wizard 10 and 15 bonus feat in epic levels for more Greater Int), but in groups I mostly just provide buffs for the meleers and haste the party every now and then. And then I fire off a few Firebrands when there's more than three enemies. Not much necromancy going on yet, in other words. That comes when I reach epic levels and my DCs become very high.

"Pale master" makes me think of a powerful wizard that summons hordes of undead, evokes fear and blasts magic. However, the way I understand it, you're saying that necromancers don't go well as DC. Could you explain a bit about how you think a pale master should function?

No, what I am saying is that if you want to focus in Necromancy, a DC build is probably better than a blaster build. But some people like to just spam off those IGMSs and Orbs of Fire. Which is fine! But they're neither necromancy nor DC spells.

Regarding support, of course, I join the occasional band of strangers, but then I have to avoid using my PM abilities, which at this point I'm heavily dependant on. So it makes me nearly useless. And for the times when I try to solo, a creature summon is too weak, so I must use my minion. What I meant was, it'd be nice to meet like-minded people who don't scowl at necromancers.

The trick is to spread your PM levels out so much that you won't have to rely on the PM abilities, just your normal spells. You also want to spread PM levels out because it's better for skills (that way you can max out listen and/or spot as well as hide/ms without having to spend too many skill points on crossclass levels.

And if you spread out your PM levels, you spell levels will progress faster. From spell level 7 and on you get elementals for Summon Creature. They aren't quite as powerful as the PM summons (though I think their AB and damage is higher, actually), but if you buff them up, they'll do fine. Here's the buffs you need: Improved Mage Armour, Spiderskin, Heroism(or Greater heroism), Greater Magic Weapon, Stoneskin. If you have enough spell slots, I would add cat's grace and bull's strength as well. And keep more than just one Stoneskin. 10/adamantine DR is a good way to keep your summon alive (whether elemental or undead), so you can renew it whenever it drops.

Then you just stay invisible yourself. Or if you've picked up hide/ms, stick to stealth (saves spell slots!) between fights and maybe stand at range with a crossbow.

[Ilron]

That's all great advice and I think I'm starting to get it. What do you think about mixing blood mage in the build? Otherwise, I'd be very grateful if you could make a build sheet of what you're building your character to be. If you think a DC build is better, I'll trust ya. As long as I can slap pretentious elves and druids, absent-minded gnomes and self-righteous paladins at epic levels - I'll be happy.

What about feats, by the way? I recall taking Spellcasting Prodigy as a history(?) trait, though I see a lot of builds with Luck of Heroes. And any reasoning behind spot/listen/hide for a necromancer?

[Deathgrowl]

That's all great advice and I think I'm starting to get it. What do you think about mixing blood mage in the build? Otherwise, I'd be very grateful if you could make a build sheet of what you're building your character to be. If you think a DC build is better, I'll trust ya.

http://nwn2db.com/build/?187948 <--- That's my build. It's lots of fun.

As long as I can slap pretentious elves and druids, absent-minded gnomes and self-righteous paladins at epic levels - I'll be happy.

Druids you won't be slapping anytime soon. They're just too durable. I never build for directly for PvP as I find the focus of pwning people in PvP distasteful towards RP. If you want to have a build good in PvP, you shouldn't care about DCs at all. ASoC is in some people's minds important to PvP because of maximized/empowered orbs and quickened bigby6.

That said, however, I don't mind if people build mainly for PvE and RP but try to make the build viable in PvP. PvP is a part of the game and if you're evil, you will most likely end up in PvP at some point. And you want to be able to put up a fight. That's fine. Just don't build with the focus of teabagging people.

What about feats, by the way? I recall taking Spellcasting Prodigy as a history(?) trait, though I see a lot of builds with Luck of Heroes. And any reasoning behind spot/listen/hide for a necromancer?

Spellcasting Prodigy is, in my mind, vital to any caster build (and in case someone doesn't understand what I mean by "caster build": Casters are NOT gishes or melee divines or strength bards. Casters are builds that use their casting directly offensively). It gives you an effective +2 int/cha/wis depending on what kind of class you are for every purpose of spellcasting. That means +1 to DCs and bonus spell slots.

Reasoning behind spot/listen and hide/ms for a caster (or anyone, for that matter!): Spot or listen (you don't really need both) is a CvC thing mainly as you want to detect sneaking spies. But there are also PvE reasons to have it. There are some sneaking mobs (I can think of yetis, yuan'ti assassins, some low level halfling bandits...). For hide/ms on the other hand, it's just very, very useful for a wizard. You have a limited amount of spells per rest. And maybe you want to spend a lot of time not being noticed, so you prepare several invisibilities. However, with hide/ms, you can just drop most of those invisibility preparations and stay hidden between mobs.

On my main, which is also a wizard (though not very well built I'm starting to realize more and more...), I have hide/ms, and I really enjoy not having to waste spells on every goblin, beetle, bandit, bear, bugbear and so on I meet on the road. She doesn't have HiPS of course, but that's not the point. You just hide before you meet the mobs and stay hidden. If you have a summon, your summon will kill the mobs and you will be completely safe.

[Ilron]

Hmm. In your build, you don't seem to have dumped str. How so? And you mentioned going 4 levels in arch mage, but the build has frost mage instead.

people build mainly for PvE and RP but try to make the build viable in PvP. PvP is a part of the game and if you're evil, you will most likely end up in PvP at some point. And you want to be able to put up a fight.

That's exactly what I'm going for. Thing is, when you're evil, fights usually come to you rather than the other way around. I don't want to build just for the purpose of PvP - that'd eliminate the purpose of playing in an RP server, after all. I just want to put up a fight if challenged, like you said.

Do you think your build works that way or is it more PvE oriented and would be easily outdone in PvP? If Necromancers = DC, and DC = PvE, then Necromancers =/= PvP in general, or am I wrong?

[Deathgrowl]

On the top of the build it says: Frost Mage = Archmage
There is no archmage on nwn2db, so frost mage is substitute.

And why would I dump strength? I mean, I could get 16 dex, sure, but that means I'd have to RP a total weakling, yeah? I didn't want to RP 8 strength. I wanted to RP 8 wisdom!

The DC build does fine in PvP in the right hands (which are not mine). Most people in PvP have too high saves for DC spells to be reliable, so you'll have to rely on no-save spells for that (bigbies for control, orbs/igms for damage and so on). Palemaster gives you a lot of survivability with the increased AC and the immunities.

You asked about bloodmage earlier. And that could certainly work. I've never built a blood mage, though, so I'm not really the one to talk with about that. I don't like the RP of blood mage so...

[Ilron]

On the top of the build it says: Frost Mage = Archmage
There is no archmage on nwn2db, so frost mage is substitute.

Sorry, being absent-minded. ><

And why would I dump strength? I mean, I could get 16 dex, sure, but that means I'd have to RP a total weakling, yeah? I didn't want to RP 8 strength. I wanted to RP 8 wisdom!

Makes me wonder what an 8 wis character is like. And I guess you're right. I had dumped str before and on top of feeling like a wimp, the carry weight was painfully low.

The DC build does fine in PvP in the right hands (which are not mine).

Does that mean your build would be unreliable in that respect? Until then I could follow your build. RCRing my character will drop him to level 10 anyway, so it will be a long way from deciding on levels 20 and above. Unless there's some special way to build the character to make Blood Magus in tune with everything else.

You asked about bloodmage earlier. And that could certainly work. I've never built a blood mage, though, so I'm not really the one to talk with about that. I don't like the RP of blood mage so...

You're willing to have a pale master that toys with the dead, but don't enjoy blood sacrifices? I mean, it's not far off in terms of evil. I suppose I'll wait for someone to join in on the thread to enlighten me about Blood Magus mix.

[Deathgrowl]

You're willing to have a pale master that toys with the dead, but don't enjoy blood sacrifices? I mean, it's not far off in terms of evil. I suppose I'll wait for someone to join in on the thread to enlighten me about Blood Magus mix.

You're right. In degree of evilness they are both pretty high. But they're also quite fundamentally different RP wise. I would say they even go as far as saying blood mage and palemaster are almost incompatible from an RP perspective:

As a palemaster, you're most likely seeking true undeath, and that means you will probably try to not make yourself reliant on the blood for your power if the undeath you reach has no blood.

As a blood mage, you become more and more addicted to the power the blood gives you. Losing that power through undeath is just not something you want to risk. You'd rather find immortality in another way.

The description of blood mage also suggests it's a very primitive way of casting magic. I don't want to play primitive casters.

Anyways, that's all just my opinion as far as RP goes. Nothing mechanical about it. Or objective even.

[Ilron]

I was thinking more along the lines of leeching the living dry and turning them undead, but blood magic does rely a lot on "consuming" the blood which is useless to an almost-lich. Do pale masters really reach undeath, though? I digress.

You forgot to answer this very important question!

The DC build does fine in PvP in the right hands (which are not mine).

Does that mean your build would be unreliable in that respect?

Just want to be sure.

[Deathgrowl]

I was thinking more along the lines of leeching the living dry and turning them undead, but blood magic does rely a lot on "consuming" the blood which is useless to an almost-lich. Do pale masters really reach undeath, though? I digress.

No, they don't actually become undead. But if you read the class description it says that they choose the path of palemaster because of an obsession for undeath and eventually wants to become undeads themselves.

The DC build does fine in PvP in the right hands (which are not mine).

Does that mean your build would be unreliable in that respect?

Just want to be sure.

Someone more PvP savvy will probably have to answer that. I personally think it would be pretty decent.

[Nomster]

As always, a PvP build's worth depends on who plays it and how quickly your opponent reacts. As a wizard you can more easily afford to have a diverse spellbook and have some tricks ready for certain opponents. I would say, make a wizard build you would like to RP. Difficult to go wrong with a wizard... you adjust your spellbook and suddenly it is suitable for PvP instead of PvE.

I would suggest you decide before your RCR what classes you want in your build. If you are thinking of adding Bloodmage along with Archmage/Palemaster/Arcane Scholar that can be quite feat intensive. Better to plan ahead than get ready for -another- RCR

For... mechanical reasons, you just may not want to leave your STR at 8. It can be done, easier on a wizard because you have the spellslot to spare for a Bull's Strength or two. If you are wondering how to play a low wisdom character, this post may be useful. There is also a post about charisma if you scroll down.

If you are looking for like minded people to level up with... that can be a bit more difficult to find in your precise level range. Some of the guilds out there might be able to lend a hand, such as the Dead Crows (they certainly do not mind chaotic evils). The Zhentarim do not bat an eye at necromancers but for leveling help we would not be as good (our lvl requirement means our members are usually quite high lvl).

I think Deathgrowl's leveling suggestions are the way to go really. When you are soloing, bring out the undead. Think of wearing a disguise as well, different robes and a mask to not get pointed out wherever you show your face. Good ways to avoid a fight you can not win is to keep a Jaunt and/or Teleport ready. In a group, use the neutral summons if the party needs a boost. They are quite good when they are fully buffed. If you want to show your face and use undead all the time, that works of course... but likely quite conflict heavy. Be prepared to win some, lose some.

[Deathgrowl]

I would say, make a wizard build you would like to RP. Difficult to go wrong with a wizard...

After finally having realized how to build wizards good (after almost like three years), I'll just have to disagree. It's very easy to go wrong with a wizard.

[Ilron]

Ha, Deathgrowl, guess what I found:
http://nwn2db.com/build/?156890

Was this one of those times you "went wrong"? Not claiming it to be, just wondering.