Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

I'm sure this has been covered more than once but I can't find anything with the search tool so hopefully someone can enlighten me.

I know that each round there's a check with Spot vs Hide and if the spot check is highest you spot the sneaker and are able to target him.
Is it exactly the same with Listen vs Move Silently?
Or if you make the listen check you will "spot" the sneaker visualy on the screen but not able to target him?

An example I've encountered is when in the Cloakwood Mines.
I've often seen the Batiri Rogues approach me slowly perfectly able to see them but when they attacked they still made a sneak attack and I had no way of preventing it.
Is this what happends when you "listen" them but don't "spot" them? or is that a bug of some kind.

And if Listen vs Move Silently works exactly like Spot vs Hide you could actually spot sneakers with only focusing on Listen with absolutely nothing in Spot as it's more difficult for sneaks to raise Move Silently over Hide and you would save the skill points by only maxing one skill in stead of two.
Or am I missing something?

A lot of questions
Any insights would be greatly appreciated.

Seventh Sister wrote:I'm sure this has been covered more than once but I can't find anything with the search tool so hopefully someone can enlighten me.

It's usually under "Stealth" threads.

I know that each round there's a check with Spot vs Hide and if the spot check is highest you spot the sneaker and are able to target him.
Is it exactly the same with Listen vs Move Silently?
Or if you make the listen check you will "spot" the sneaker visualy on the screen but not able to target him?

You spot them AND you can target them. It should not be like this in D&D, but it certainly is in NWN2. My mages killed an ungodly amount of amazing sneaks exactly like that, so it does work.

An example I've encountered is when in the Cloakwood Mines.
I've often seen the Batiri Rogues approach me slowly perfectly able to see them but when they attacked they still made a sneak attack and I had no way of preventing it.
Is this what happends when you "listen" them but don't "spot" them? or is that a bug of some kind.

Not sure, but it could very well be they are "spotted" by a texture/terrain bug and you actually did NOT hear them, that's why the SA fires. If you do detect them, there is no SA.

And if Listen vs Move Silently works exactly like Spot vs Hide you could actually spot sneakers with only focusing on Listen with absolutely nothing in Spot as it's more difficult for sneaks to raise Move Silently over Hide and you would save the skill points by only maxing one skill in stead of two.
Or am I missing something?

This is what Bards always do, and Druids usually do. It is worth mentioning though that (aside from the RP perspective) Spot also defends vs Sleight of Hand and Feint, whereas Listen will not help you thusly.

A lot of questions
Any insights would be greatly appreciated.

You're welcome, have fun

Thanks a lot Aelcar!

I think you covered them all

Listen makes a black silhuette when you "spot", while the Spot skill, just renders the sneak as if they were walking normally.

Aelcar wrote:

An example I've encountered is when in the Cloakwood Mines.
I've often seen the Batiri Rogues approach me slowly perfectly able to see them but when they attacked they still made a sneak attack and I had no way of preventing it.
Is this what happends when you "listen" them but don't "spot" them? or is that a bug of some kind.

Not sure, but it could very well be they are "spotted" by a texture/terrain bug and you actually did NOT hear them, that's why the SA fires. If you do detect them, there is no SA.

I've run into this with yetis, yuan'ti assassins, batiri and so on. I don't think it's terrain thing. It could be that you're not actually seeing (which would be spot skill) the attack, so it's still a sneak attack. It could also just be flanking or something.

Deathgrowl wrote:Listen makes a black silhuette when you "spot", while the Spot skill, just renders the sneak as if they were walking normally.

Aelcar wrote:

An example I've encountered is when in the Cloakwood Mines.
I've often seen the Batiri Rogues approach me slowly perfectly able to see them but when they attacked they still made a sneak attack and I had no way of preventing it.
Is this what happends when you "listen" them but don't "spot" them? or is that a bug of some kind.

Not sure, but it could very well be they are "spotted" by a texture/terrain bug and you actually did NOT hear them, that's why the SA fires. If you do detect them, there is no SA.

I've run into this with yetis, yuan'ti assassins, batiri and so on. I don't think it's terrain thing. It could be that you're not actually seeing (which would be spot skill) the attack, so it's still a sneak attack. It could also just be flanking or something.

Weird. On my pale masters, I always have a decent Listen, and when they attack me never get "Immune to SA" message. You sure?

Deathgrowl wrote:Listen makes a black silhuette when you "spot", while the Spot skill, just renders the sneak as if they were walking normally.

Aelcar wrote:

An example I've encountered is when in the Cloakwood Mines.
I've often seen the Batiri Rogues approach me slowly perfectly able to see them but when they attacked they still made a sneak attack and I had no way of preventing it.
Is this what happends when you "listen" them but don't "spot" them? or is that a bug of some kind.

Not sure, but it could very well be they are "spotted" by a texture/terrain bug and you actually did NOT hear them, that's why the SA fires. If you do detect them, there is no SA.

I've run into this with yetis, yuan'ti assassins, batiri and so on. I don't think it's terrain thing. It could be that you're not actually seeing (which would be spot skill) the attack, so it's still a sneak attack. It could also just be flanking or something.

Even if you spot them but dont engage them in combat you are still caught flatfooted, thats why they get SAs

mrm3ntalist wrote: Even if you spot them but dont engage them in combat you are still caught flatfooted, thats why they get SAs

Yeah but once I spot them like this I always choose to attack them.
So even though they should win the initiative they shouldn't get a sneak attack should they?

I mean if you have a Rogue who isn't sneaking and you win the initiative you don't get a sneak attack to my knowledge.

Seventh Sister wrote:

mrm3ntalist wrote: Even if you spot them but dont engage them in combat you are still caught flatfooted, thats why they get SAs

Yeah but once I spot them like this I always choose to attack them.
So even though they should win the initiative they shouldn't get a sneak attack should they?

I mean if you have a Rogue who isn't sneaking and you win the initiative you don't get a sneak attack to my knowledge.

If he is flanking you, yes, he gets SA. Face to face, no.

Aelcar wrote:

Seventh Sister wrote:

mrm3ntalist wrote: Even if you spot them but dont engage them in combat you are still caught flatfooted, thats why they get SAs

Yeah but once I spot them like this I always choose to attack them.
So even though they should win the initiative they shouldn't get a sneak attack should they?

I mean if you have a Rogue who isn't sneaking and you win the initiative you don't get a sneak attack to my knowledge.

If he is flanking you, yes, he gets SA. Face to face, no.

If I select him as a target and attack him I will always have front to him.
I'm aware that they can flank if attacking from the side/back.
But the situations I'm refering to here is when they walk towards me from distance.
Creatures never do that unless they are sneaking. So I have plenty of time to attack him.
But as mentioned they still get the sneak attack.

If they win the initiative they should get the SA

matelener wrote:If they win the initiative they should get the SA

So if a Rogue approach an enemy out in the open and he wins the initiative he gets his first flurry attacks as Sneak Attacks?

Deathgrowl wrote:Listen makes a black silhuette when you "spot", while the Spot skill, just renders the sneak as if they were walking normally.

Aelcar wrote:

An example I've encountered is when in the Cloakwood Mines.
I've often seen the Batiri Rogues approach me slowly perfectly able to see them but when they attacked they still made a sneak attack and I had no way of preventing it.
Is this what happends when you "listen" them but don't "spot" them? or is that a bug of some kind.

Not sure, but it could very well be they are "spotted" by a texture/terrain bug and you actually did NOT hear them, that's why the SA fires. If you do detect them, there is no SA.

I've run into this with yetis, yuan'ti assassins, batiri and so on. I don't think it's terrain thing. It could be that you're not actually seeing (which would be spot skill) the attack, so it's still a sneak attack. It could also just be flanking or something.

I had the same issue. Basically, if you have high listen, but low spot, sneaking enemies will be seen as black silhouettes, and you won't be able to target them from keyboard. You'll have to click at them or use aoe attack. Happens all the time pretty much everywhere. On other hand, I had impression that listen helps you "detect" things through the walls in same fashion, while spot requires line of sight.

There is also that thing with terrain bug, but it is incredibly rare. When you hit terrain bug, you also see enemy as silhouette, but can't reach it, no matter what.

Its not so much that the game is flawed because you can target characters you hear but not see, its the lack of concealment check and the ability to cast spells that require LOS but can't see the target which the game mechanics fail to emulate. Its unfortunate we can't really mess with detection easily and in some cases at all.

Seventh Sister wrote:

matelener wrote:If they win the initiative they should get the SA

So if a Rogue approach an enemy out in the open and he wins the initiative he gets his first flurry attacks as Sneak Attacks?

By DND 3.5 RAW, Yes. Until you take your first turn, you are considered flatfooted. This very very rare status condition(Only about two things in 3.5 can treat you as flatfooted when you aren't) causes the inability to get AoOs and denies you your dex modifier to your AC. This second thing allows any sneak attacks(or death attacks) to hit you for SA damage. With every attack. Until you get a turn. While I'm not sure if NWN2 follows that, it's one of the rogues winning abilities that they can drop a slow wizard like it's hot.

The RAW for Sneak attack:

WOTC wrote:The rogue’s attack deals extra damage any time her target would be denied a Dexterity bonus to AC (whether the target actually has a Dexterity bonus or not), or when the rogue flanks her target. This extra damage is 1d6 at 1st level, and it increases by 1d6 every two rogue levels thereafter. Should the rogue score a critical hit with a sneak attack, this extra damage is not multiplied.

If you succeed a listen check but fail a spot check then the target will approach while in a black silhouette. You can directly target this foe but you will be considered flat footed, even if in combat, until you either pass your spot check or else the foe has its first combat round.