Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

DM Mouse wrote:Well, the Knights of the Shadowy Cloak may multiclass as Illusionists. I think you may have misinterpreted something somewhere.

As for poison, it brings suffering into the world when used against sentient life and it's an inhumane method of combat for intelligent beings to use against each other. You can not compare yourself to a scorpion as you are a higher life form, not a creature lacking personality and any meaningful intelligence. What you do you do with full knowledge of the consequences and feelings your victims will have befall them.

DM Mouse wrote:For Paladins it falls under dishonorable combat to use poison. That is why you don't see the Poison spell on their spell lists.
And yes, there's horrible disfiguring, painful poisons that Eldath even granted to some of her followers.

It's not so much an Evil act as a decidedly Neutral one. But Neutral is still progressing away from Good which puts them closer to Evil without having to be Evil. Paladins do not make a habit of doing anything but striving to be Good.

Now you want the reasoning, not the rules. The Defenders of the Faith source book has this to offer: "Some parties may be leery of you because they would rather keep their options open: lying, cheating, and using all the weapons at their disposal, including poison. You know that these methods breed weakness in those who use them and, like any evil act, create future consequences that are ultimately harmful."

Cel'Daren wrote:As for horrible painful poisons available to followers of Eldath, the self-expressed deity of peace, that only makes me more sure that Poison use in and of itself is not tied to any alignment by itself.

chambordini wrote:I keep ending in the conclusion that we shouldn't be using the alignment system to regard anything related to role play. It's just a petty, flawed and lacking-of-depth system to measure role play.

chambordini wrote:Are you telling me all butchers are chaotic evil? I mean, they murder and slaughter pigs for monetary gain and do it through deception, they don't show the knife until the very last moment, otherwise the meat is stiffer and tastes worse.

Cel'Daren wrote:I am, apparently, failing to grasp the reasoning behind some things and why they're accepted as they are. So I want to ask everyone here on the forum about them, in an effort to truly understand.

First Topic in this line of Threads: Deception and Poisons, why are they considered inherently Chaotic and/or Evil in nature?

Cel'Daren wrote: Why is the use of Poison considered an evil act? Even in situations where the use of poison results in lives saved;

Cel'Daren wrote: even when the lack of its use can cause widespread disease and destruction, poison is for some reason considered an evil thing. Apparently straight against the face of nature as well, considering all the poisonous and venomous creatures nature has produced, which as we should know, are True Neutral in alignment under the 3.5 system. So why is poison considered evil despite the fact that is seemingly just another part of the system?

Cel'Daren wrote: Animals LIVE on deception as a matter of course.

Cel'Daren wrote: Why is Deception in all of its forms including Lying, Feinting, Hiding, Sneak Attack, Silent Omission, and any other form you can think of considered an inherently chaotic, and possibly evil, act?

Cel'Daren wrote: It's not my interpretation that I'm questioning. It's everyone else's. To me. Lying is not an inherently chaotic or evil act. To me it is simply another tool to be used. In an of itself deception doesn't have an alignment tied to it.

Cel'Daren wrote: Also, wait! Isn't there a Poison spell? Yup!

The short answer is that there exists a short set of principles which all Paladins are considered bound by. These cover situations described by D&D source books which BG:TSCC is based on, as a Forgotten Realms setting. But these rules are only an overlapping framework. There is for example no universal principle against Paladins performing sneak attacks / deceptions, or ambushes, though Paladins commonly take individual vows to avoid such acts. Because they are perceived as dishonorable.

The larger answer is that the use of poison and deception is permitted depending on the circumstances. For example on ones self to develop toxin immunity, or as medicine (becoming poison by degree). Depending on the effect of the poison it is considered dishonorable or even outright evil. It is generally accepted that Paladins should not be cruel, nor cause unnecessary suffering. The use of certain terrible poisons is therefore practically forbidden. In any case most paladins consider the use of poison in battle dishonorable and would have taken personal vows against its use to take down opponents.

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DM Mouse: Now you want the reasoning, not the rules. The Defenders of the Faith source book has this to offer: "Some parties may be leery of you because they would rather keep their options open: lying, cheating, and using all the weapons at their disposal, including poison. You know that these methods breed weakness in those who use them and, like any evil act, create future consequences that are ultimately harmful."

I would add to DM Mouse's citation that in-characterly a Paladin who deceives and uses poison ought to face scorn, wariness, and even ridicule from fellow Paladins, and potentially other folk. In order to join a Paladin order it is moreover commonly required that the Paladin applicant posses an unblemished reputation and impeccable sense of honor. The use of poison and deceptions are therefore likely to disqualify the applicant from joining an organization with higher standards, or may result in his disbarment if he had already joined prior to the dishonor.

Your other implied question was why poison isn't on the Paladin spell list. The answer to that is because Wizards of the Coast and Ed Greenwood feel it doesn't belong on their spell list. Just like they don't get the sneak attack feats either. This presumably reflects the view that the use of poison and sneak attacks is normally considered dishonorable, even if there is no framework rule against it per se. Blackguards for example do get the Poison spell and sneak attack feats, implying that their use fits dishonorable and evil characters. This is sensible because the Poison spell permits the use of some rather painful and cruel poisons, which it does automatically in NWN2.

As you have read the use of poison and deception is not universally forbidden. What is universally forbidden in any case is to willingly bring about evil, even for a supposed greater good, unless ordained by your deity (through a Dungeon Master!). The use of spells or items with the evil descriptor / effect is therefore a universal violation of the paladin code. As are cruelty, causing unnecessary suffering, cowardice, and disloyalty to the deity. The breaking of a personal vow means disloyalty to ones self as a servant of the deity and is therefore also against the code unless there are legitimate reasons, such as a command by your Deity. The consequences depend on the infraction. One wrong act is normally not enough to immediately become a fallen paladin, though consistent cruelty certainly would be. An exception is murder, which normally does mean the Paladin falls from grace.

(This is my personal interpretation, for a definitive answer refer to DM Maecius and DM Mouse)

XyrisMourn wrote: HOWEVER, lying, deception & poison use are not evil in the second sense of having an impact on the points that contribute to an alignment system UNLESS THE DM SAYS SO. That means a subjective judgement (the DMs) is made and an objective outcome (more evil points) results.