Giant vs Dwarves

[AlwaysSummer Day]

As a long time player of the dwarven race I feel it is high time we discuss certain feats giant get. Dwarves receive a feat that grants them +4 ac against giants. This is supported by the handbooks and lore and is intended to give them leverage against giants who are amongst their most hated foes. So please explain why the giants, who have no ranger levels, receive favored enemy dwarves and improved favored enemy dwarves? I cannot seem to find any reference to these feats being given in my 3.5 manuals perhaps they are in 2.0? Hill Giants already have a huge advantage over dwarves at range with their reflex save attack since dwarves generally make a poor choice for dex based characters as well as frost and fire giants having many casters which once again dwarves make a poor choice to level as. So. . . . what gives? Was the +4 AC really so overpowering it had to be nerfed?

/rant

[mireigi]

Sadly there are a lot of such inconsistencies on the server where monsters have feats and/or classes that shouldn't be available to them (see below).

The reason for this is likely to balance builds centered on the Dwarven Defender, such as The Ultimate Dwarven Defender posted by Karond. That build is a powerbuild, however, but the dwarven racial against Giants make it much easier to create such builds, even without powerbuilding.

It isn't so much that the feat itself is overpowered, it's that it is too good when used in combination with one of the most popular PrCs picked with a dwarven PC - the Dwarven Defender.





Off-topic (lore inconsistencies):
Some of the Ruins of Oghrann mobs in the Underdark have both Monk and Barbarian levels, which shouldn't be possible at all.

Fire Giants have permanent True Seeing.

Enslaved Dwarves in the Illithid Mines in the Underdark are immune to Paralysis.

[7threalm]

Enslaved Dwarves in the Illithid Mines in the Underdark are immune to Paralysis.



I think duegear are immune to paralysis, or are they surface dwarves?

[mireigi]

Enslaved Dwarves in the Illithid Mines in the Underdark are immune to Paralysis.



I think duegear are immune to paralysis, or are they surface dwarves?

Duergar in the Duergar Halls are not immune.

It's off-topic though and was only included to paint a broader picture of the underlying issue that is lore deviations for monsters.

[AlwaysSummer Day]

That specific build is the only good DD build I have ever seen. At any rate you have to admit it is counter intuitive to buff a creature just because a certain race is resilient to it. I mean by that logic Mind Flayers should get favored enemy elves and improved favored enemy elves because elves have hardiness vs. enchantments and it becomes unbalanced when a player power builds to be resistant to such effects right?

[mireigi]

I can't vouch for the reason behind it. It's just a theory. Some of the things done for balance doesn't make sense to me, this is one of them

I'd much rather that areas had monsters appropriate for the area's CR, with slightly beefed up stats to account for dumb AI, but no additional feats or abilities added, only attribute increases.

On the server you have giant type monsters at the Ice Fortress, South of Nashkel, Fire Giants, Stone Giant, and Ettins in the Western Troll Claws. That's five popular areas for farming either XP or items, which may be why the dwarven AC vs giants have been evened out a little by those feats, which the giants shouldn't have btw.

[Tsidkenu]

All ogres and trolls also count as the giant racial type, so that would include the Sea cave, Elder Ogres and Troll Claw trolls. They also get +1 AB vs goblins, orcs, bugbears and batiri meaning dwarves have a pretty good time of it at any stage and in any place of the server!

[mireigi]

Then you can add in the Spirit Trolls in the High Moors cave as well.

Effectively that means a +4 AC bonus starting at level 8 (Sea Cave Trolls), which will allow you to grind xp and items/gold all the way up to level 30 (Fire Giants), without ever going anywhere that doesn't provide said bonus.

That is probably why the actual Giants have the Favored Enemy: Dwarf line of feats, so all of it isn't just a walk in the park.

[Blackman D]

in general when you see things like that its usually some measure to stop people from running over the server

they would not be the only example of it either, it has killed out some specs and made others that were tough to begin with even harder but thats what happens when a certain powerbuild reigns for a while

[Karond]

I wasn't aware of this, is it all giants?

More importantly, is it "hate" applied on dwarves only? Gnomes for example get the same bonus, do these giants get bonuses against them too?

[mrm3ntalist]

I wasn't aware of this, is it all giants?

More importantly, is it "hate" applied on dwarves only? Gnomes for example get the same bonus, do these giants get bonuses against them too?

- The Deep gnomes +4 dodge AC got removed.
- Dwarven Defender is the only PRC that gives +4AC for 10 lvls and was left alone, while Tempests AC got nerfed.

Lets be honest here, dwarves can get very high AC especially against Giants. The giants' FEs is exactly that, a way to balance this advantage dwarves get against giants. If you all want to discuss rebalancing this, ideas might get thrown that might be less appealing than the current situation.

[7threalm]

well, dont see dwarves running around soloing draco lich, balor,

mabey we should add assimar to that hate list lol, certaintly a balor would hate an assimar

I'm guessing this something from long ago that was implemented before other content that never was reverted honestly, when dwarven defender rained supreme, but not all dwarves are dwarven defenders

just plan raciest lol

[mrm3ntalist]

well, dont see dwarves running around soloing draco lich, balor,

mabey we should add assimar to that hate list lol, certaintly a balor would hate an assimar

Its not the race that allows them to solo epic content but the classes. A Dwarf diviner can solo epic content the same way an Aasimar diviner can. On top of that, dwarves meleers are the only ones that can solo or stand a good chance against the bosses you mentioned before.

[7threalm]

exactly dwarven defender is a class, that cause a nerf to a race

[mrm3ntalist]

exactly dwarven defender is a class, that cause a nerf to a race

Its a dwarven specific class. But that is not just it. The reason why giants got that bonus is because of dwarves racial ability - +4ac against giants. If it was "hate towards dwarves" all mobs would get FE dwarves. Maybe bane too