Changes to loot system and promoting rp

[chad878262]

Quote from Calodon in the "Mines" thread, but felt this deserved its own topic.

No one goes to the crystal caves because it just kills you. Nothing but epic level traps hitting you for 80+ damage and no real reward to beat the dungeon as the entire loot system is a little screwy since each chest can be looted once per 15 minutes by one person. It might see more people and many of the other areas would too if the loot system were individual. Meaning each chest opens for each party member in each dungeon thereby encouraging grouping and RP. This is pretty much the case for the entire server. I would rather open a chest once per reset with a bump in percentages to drop greater and epic loot for everyone in the party when adventuring. It just makes no sense to me personally right now how the system is set up. It encourages soloing first off and the low drop percentage for greater and epic loot promotes area farming while soloing. Neither of these is what in my opinion the server wants to put forth to the fans of this server but that is what I see it as. It is rather discouraging to me actually. There are so many great storytellers here and the DMs are just fantastic but the mechanical setup of the everyday dungeons for loot is just plain counter productive and not conducive to bringing in new players and keeping them. I would love to see more dungeons in any aspect however. New dungeons are always a good thing for players. So I would love to see more of the doors and caves around the current server get use for sure!

I love the stories and rp on this server, but thought this deserved more discussion in its own thread. Many players build characters specifically that can solo the epic areas of the server and then go on ooc loot runs trying to open a many chests as possible on the off chance they get something worthwhile. Others (like me) go on cloakwood runs to grab chests because the epic bosses kill them...

If the chests dropped individual loot per character you would see more people party up and maybe even trying new areas. Loot grinding would become another path to rp instead of something you do to try and get something useful (or at least something you can sell).

New classes, feats, skills, etc. are great, but I think an individual loot system would promote more diversity in the classes people choose to play and would promote people teaming up in dungeons for more than just level grinding. Current system gives people a reason to solo and a disadvantage for partying up.

I would be all for a somewhat modified loot table increasing the likelihood of greater/epic drops a little, but individual loot chests to me is of greater importance of expanding rp outside of events, meta plot and guild intricacies.

I'm aware this has been discussed before, but based on the thread Lock started I thought it deserved consideration.

Wall of text over, thanks for reading!

[the_flame_of_anor]

+1, especially for the individual loot chests to promote partying up.

I know this has been discussed to death, but really, something seriously needs to be done about epic bosses dropping empty wine bottles, burning sticks and what-nots.

[OXHawkXO]

This is inspired by the recent loot thread here:

http://bgtscc.net/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=42786


The point of this poll is to create a concrete and detailed proposal for a loot system to give the game developers something to go on, if the community deems it a good idea.

If everyone agrees that they like this system, I am willing to implement it. I have years of experience scripting NWN2 and have created 3 solo modules totaling over 30 hours of play time on my own, complete with custom scripting.

Here is the proposal:

1) Chests are only lootable once per reset.
2) All level restrictions are removed from chests.
3) Chests reset 2 seconds after being looted.
4) Chests only give XP for picking locks once per reset.


Advantages of this system:
1) Easy and fast to implement: These changes require no new coding, only changing of a few variables in the existing code.

2) All dungeons are open to all players at all times for looting: It doesn't matter if someone else is in the dungeon ahead of you, the chests will always be available for looting.

3) All members of a party get loot: If you are partied up, everyone gets a whack at the chests.

4) No more dungeon camping: After you loot all the chests, that's it. No reason to stay, unless you are grinding spaws.

5) No more worrying about having to show status while looting: Since everyone can loot the chests, it doesn't matter if a dungeon is already "occupied."

6) No more arguments about "ninja looting."

7) Higher level toons will interact with lower level ones more often in the lower level dungeons.

8) Players who don't like to Lootgrind solo, but enjoy adventuring in a group will get more rewards.

Is this still in the works?

[chad878262]

I don't know, but I love Matt's work so would be very happy if this was allowed (or some variant thereof)

[Rasael]

mrieder's work is top-notch.

We're gearing up for a content push sometime the coming month(s), depending on personal schedules. I will make a personal note to come back to this then if it hasn't been picked up in the mean-time.

[chad878262]

Thank you Rasael, appreciate your response!

[Atlas]

It is my opinion that I think this should be implemented as soon as possible. If it was there would be little to no incentive not to play a character who is always traveling and essentially roleplaying through adventuring, in the absence of roleplaying through just socializing, and such means.


It would also promote the idea of adventuring companies and such, which were a mainstay for adventurers in the original Baldur's Gate video games, fx. The Men of the Undermountain, The Knights of the Unicorn, The Knights of Myth Drannor, etc, The Heroes of Phlan, The Heroes of the Sword Coast, Nasher's Company, etc.

[mrieder79]

There is a flaw with the system. What happens when you finally find that +4 mithral full plate but you accidentally close the chest instead of looting it and it restets, deleting your uber loot?

Until this question can be answered, the system will not work and will cause no end of headaches for the staff.

[chad878262]

First of all, thank you Matt for WA, first and only SP RPG I ever played a full caster mage and it was loads of fun!

On topic, I know there is at least one PW that has an individual loot chest system that works fairly well so I have to believe it can also be done here. I think the downside there is that once a party is in a dungeon area the chest only works for the people in that party. Or maybe only will spawn items a number of times equal to the party size, not sure. Items that the first person chooses not to loot remain in the chest when the next person loots in addition to anything that spawns for them as well.

All this being said I have zero ability or knowledge of scripting so I've no idea how many hours of work is needed to make something like this happen, I only say that I think implementing it would spawn far more RP outside of DM events than anything else that could be done right now which makes me think it should be a high priority, if the end goal of server changes is to promote more RP.

Even with the flaw, and the fact that someone could get upset if they click "loot all" and the chest closes, I still think that would be preferable to what we have now. As long as you don't click the all button you shouldn't have any issue with the chest closing on you, at least I've never seen that happen.

[Calodan]

There is a flaw with the system. What happens when you finally find that +4 mithral full plate but you accidentally close the chest instead of looting it and it restets, deleting your uber loot?

Until this question can be answered, the system will not work and will cause no end of headaches for the staff.

I know other servers have implemented this same thing with little issues from players. This can be solved by giving the chests a slight bump in percentages to drop greater and epic gear. I think the rate at which any of those things drops for all PCs is way too low. In three to fours years I have seen one piece of epic gear drop on any PC I play. It was a banded mail.......So it took four years to get a epic P.O.S. gear. That is just WOW......Way I see IMHO to combat giving better gear in chests on the average you could drastically lower the gold put on a few NPCs for Bosses. A.K.A. Frost King, Balor and so forth that drop an obscene amount of gold in the 5k range to say 1k range. This lowers gold put in circulation and lets people do what they really want to do and that is adventure together and get really cool stuff on the adventure. No matter which way you shake it. Story lines as the full reward or not this is a video game and as such is a toy and like all toys we as people love to make it the shiniest one we can. Lets promote adventure RP here! Lets promote more merchants by actually having gear drop in chests that people want to sell IG IC and not list for months on a forum list. I want to see the world come alive and I think this one simple change will really help fix a lot of cosmetic issues people are not quite okay with. With a system like this there is no reason to not group up and create RP. Whether your toon is evil and theirs good or not. I mean still certain situations that will always be a I am not working with your PC RP but this way it is actually RP when they do it......

[mrieder79]

First of all, thank you Matt for WA, first and only SP RPG I ever played a full caster mage and it was loads of fun!

Very glad you enjoyed it.

Items that the first person chooses not to loot remain in the chest when the next person loots in addition to anything that spawns for them as well.

That is a good suggestion and it sounds like it would work.

Even with the flaw, and the fact that someone could get upset if they click "loot all" and the chest closes, I still think that would be preferable to what we have now. As long as you don't click the all button you shouldn't have any issue with the chest closing on you, at least I've never seen that happen.

Things happen. Maybe a spawn attacks mid-looting or your cat jumps on the keyboard. The loot system needs to be airtight because, believe me, if anyone finally finds that suit of mithral fullplate and loses it because of a bug, it will be a serious problem.

Still, you made a very good suggestion and maybe we can make it work.

A potential problem is that loot left in a chest could build up so that chests may end up having twenty or thirty old items in them by the time the server resets. Possibly we could have a system that allows the chest to be completely cleaned out if it isn't used for say, 5 minutes. Unfortunately that might require a timer and if we start putting timers on all the chests in the server I'm not sure how that would work with system resources. NWScript has a tendency to be inefficient and cumbersome. Of course... all the chests and boss respawns already have timers so maybe it wouldn't be a problem. I'll think about it.

I'll discuss the matter with Rasael if staff agrees to implement it.

[NeOmega]

Make the chest reset every 30 seconds.

Problem solved.

You open chest. Oops. It closes. Open it again. Your mithral +4 is still there.

1 minute later, you open chest. You get message, "you have used this chest too many times".

If you are in a party, they have to wait thirty second to get their turn. A little bit of RP will help the time fly, I am sure.

And I think this is a system essential to the health and fun of the server.

I am still for level restrictions, unless loot is tied to the area CR, and not the player's level, as it is currently.

[freekender]

I really support the idea of individual looting chests. I think it would encourage the partying up and can lead to more RPing and exploring, and not just running an individual area like chickens over and over for hours.

I know the server you are talking about in which this system is implemented, and I must say that it works very fine, although it doesn't have a limit per reset, and this looks a bit excesive to me (it kills RP a bit and empowers grinding). This being said, I think two loots per reset will be a proper number (one seems a little low to me).

Level restrictions? Of course it should be maintained. If not it will lead into lvl 20s looting lvl 1-10 areas like there's no tomorrow.

About the point of the possible chest-closing and losing something... well, I think that having some care will work, but a timer can help too.

Finally, even if this system doesn't apply, I think that increasing the drop rate (even a little bit) is a point that should seriously be taken into account.

[chad878262]

I think a 30 second timer may be too short. What of a bunch of level 2-4 PCs are rp'ing while penning chests and a half dozen kobolds spawn? I think mrieder79's idea would be best since loot would remain until chest has been unopened for 5 minutes. In this manner there is no need to wait between party members looting.

Regarding level caps on chests and # of times you can loot per reset I think a measured approach is needed. Issue is from level 1-5 you are very limited in where you can safely go so only having 1 per reset would be frustrating. Once you hit 7 or 8 your options open up, especially since being in a party allows you to adventure in somewhat more dangerous areas.

In order not to over complicate things I think it should be left at 2 drops in the beginning, to accommodate lower levels, but I would be fine with reducing to 1 (you won't be lower level for long anyway). While at first glance it might seem the reduction is a big deal you also don't want to flood the server with items due more people looting together so the reduction makes sense from that perspective. Once you hit the mid to high teens there are plenty of options so one chest per reset should be fine sense you can travel to many locations.

I believe level caps should stay, but should be tweaked. I like the idea of a higher level "training" one or more lower levels so perhaps each area could increase the max level by 3-5 or something (especially cloakwood mines which should be raised anyway imo). Honestly though even if this doesn't happen I can imagine rp heavy guilds/players would still do this for the rp. Anyway currently with items having an equal chance to drop in all areas regardless of level some discretion is warranted. If hilltop ruins was capped at +2 for instance it wouldn't be an issue since epic chars would still have no reason to go there other than training rp. However, as it stands now Looting 100's of chests all with equal chance of epic drops would encourage high levels to run through everywhere as fast as they can and this does not encourage rp.

Many of these just add unnecessary complexity and I would much rather see a simple change IMPLEMENTED rather than talk about the "perfect" fix.

In short of we can get individually looted chests once or twice per reset with the 5 minute timer (or the current 15 minute one) to delete left junk, for me thats the "win". If we get expanded greater/epic drops chance that is another "win", but not a critical success factor compared to the first . Everything else is gravy which is fine if it can be done, but should be out of scope of it delays the release in any way.

[Uther3867]

chest looting is a issue when hunting in a big group but that's not a concern i've found causing lack of RP

my issue is we get a group together of 4-5 people and were getting barley double digit XP when a group of 1-2 gets mid teens, i would say that would discourage some from grouping up and say going to the Vault or going to one of the more group minded dungeons

i have instances when i used to DM tabletop like that so what i did was up the spawn difficulty for a bigger payout and there are servers that play of of Average group party level going by number of people. it's sad when you only get 11-12 for a troll and you get 20 roughly every few lines of speech