Pro/Con of Bard24/Fighter3/Sorc3

[Jo3Dang3r]

I'm wondering if this would be a good build. I'd like to end up with the top bard songs (Legionnaires March, Requiem, etc, but get a few other proficiencies as well, such as medium armor, and weapon with the fighter, and some sorcerer spells with practiced spellcaster.

Just worried I'll end up with an all around weak character if I don't go pure bard. (Not getting the strong high level bard songs.

Any input appreciated. Thanks.

[Storm Munin]

Depending on where you are going with your toon that may be good or not.
If you only take these levels your better epic songs are not in any danger.


I fail to see how 3 sorcery levels might benefit however, since the spells will not last overlong.
3 warlock levels for some invocations (24hr duration) would serve much better honestly.

As for fighter it really depends on what you want from the class in question.
Some would say ranger would be better, or even rogue.
Then there are all the prestige classes.


Perhaps if you could supply a few thoughts about your concept (not about classes, what does the toon do?) we could aid you better in your building?

[Thorsson]

You don't need to be pure Bard, you just need enough levels to get Requiem, which is 21 (or maybe 20 with the right Feat).

Sorceror seems a bad idea though. I can't think of any spells that would be of much use and you would hurt your AB & HP. Something like Bd23/F4/BG3 going for EDM would work well:

http://nwn2db.com/build/?76662

[Jo3Dang3r]

I really like that build (Blackjack) that was posted. (Except for the evil part, dislike RP evil) But he seems strong.

What I want this character to be is a type of support/utility class. Be able to hold his own in combat (INT=13 so combat expertise, maybe greater combat expertise, so that I can hang near the battles and have that increased AC). Not a solo'ing character necessarily. Be able to survive a battle playing songs, using items, taking an occasional swing, maybe using a scroll, etc. Maybe even incorporate improved parry, so that he can be close enough to the battles so that the companions still get the music buffs, but not get hit super easily.

I thought the sorceror class would be a good because I'd have the high charisma already, but them realized I'd only get level 2 spells if I didn't go any farther than level 3 sorceror. And no spell scribing...I'd probably be better off with wizard, at least I'd be able to scribe spells into my book and use any 0-3 level spells. But I'm actually starting to think that no wiz/sorc is best. 21 Bard, with a little fighter (4), or maybe even (9)?

But the most important thing is to have ALL the bard songs, Legionnaires, Hymn of Requiem, etc. It seems as though as long as i get 21 levels of Bard, I'll get all those songs. Now the question is, do I lose feats if I do this?

The stats I had started with were as follows (to give you an idea of what I was thinking about). But I will be starting from scratch, so whatever makes sense!

STR 16
DEX 12
CON 10
INT 15
WIS 8
CHA 15

Hopefully I explained the type of character I want to make, and thanks for the input!

edit - I did a search for bgtscc in the nwn2 builder and there's a lot to look at! Checking them out now.

[Storm Munin]

So in essence a caster bard with survivability in melee is what you are intending for.


Some feedback on how you started:

Str 16 Unless you play a melee bard and actually seek fighting not necessary above 14 at all.

Dex 12 You get little benefit from the armors you should wear, you cannot wear the armor you need with dex 12 without taking a feat for it AND you suffer arcane spell failure in heavy armor unless you opt for Still spell feat. Id say most start at 14-16 here.

Con 10 Nothing out of the ordinary, but something you will have to counter with gear due to low hp and abysmal fort save.

Int 15 Why? You are not making a skill monkey bard(?), the odd number offers you nothing. Most start evennumbered 12-16 (higher number for races supporting cheap investment).

Wis 8 Pretty average for almost any build that does not depends on WIS.

Cha 15 Not good but you can live with it, it is possible to start as low as 14 honestly though that put a lower cap at spell DC (and song DC in your case).

Parry:
Almost no one place points in the parry skill since the return in defense is not worth the cost.
You will loose attacks and still not deflect a lot without investment in obscure classes.

Requim songs:
As long as you have song of heroism before lv26 and enough bardcounted levels you are okay no matter how you go.

Epic bonus feats:
Yes, if you take other classes than pure bard level you will loose your free bonus feats.
Still leave you with feat levels at 21, 23, 26 and 29.

Combat expertise/ICE:
You can go this way but you will loose out on actually hitting things unless you do a serious strength investment. Many like to do this with caster magebuilds.


Yes, you did a decent job at explaining what you wanted though at least I am still puzzled at some gaps you left out such as desired weapon, end stats, religion (should it be important), background and so on.


Quick and dirty example of what I mean:

"Jim Bob grew up in a monastry but due to circumstance X he left and wandered the roads for years.
While roadbound he made friends with a weaponmaster who taught him to master the greatsword whenever they met.
When fighting Jim Bob prefers a quick strike with his blade to soften up his opponent when he does not chance it with a body slam to turn his opponent prone.
He is a friendly chap."

From these few lines a few things can be taken without a single mechanical feature being mentioned:
Monastry, sounds like monk.
Hmm, 6 monk levels offer free improved knockdown and you get evasion at monk lv2 paving a way to the expose weakness feat.
That would explain the quick strike to soften up things.
Roadbound for years, thats an investment in the survival skill maybe?
Languages and social skills?
Friendly, social skills right?
Sounds like it could be some sort of weaponmaster build too.

End result:
"Hey Ken.
What would you say if I told you monk6 fighter12 wm5 whirling dervish7?
You get improved knockdown, expose weakness, some survival skill and actually rather a decent skill monkey.
You could opt to go the feint route if you invest heavily on Bluff.
I suggest going all in for strength after initial investments in dex and wis on it, unless you want to go without armor?

How do you feel about that one?"


Good luck mate.

[Thorsson]

I really like that build (Blackjack) that was posted. (Except for the evil part, dislike RP evil) But he seems strong.

What I want this character to be is a type of support/utility class. Be able to hold his own in combat (INT=13 so combat expertise, maybe greater combat expertise, so that I can hang near the battles and have that increased AC). Not a solo'ing character necessarily. Be able to survive a battle playing songs, using items, taking an occasional swing, maybe using a scroll, etc. Maybe even incorporate improved parry, so that he can be close enough to the battles so that the companions still get the music buffs, but not get hit super easily.

I thought the sorceror class would be a good because I'd have the high charisma already, but them realized I'd only get level 2 spells if I didn't go any farther than level 3 sorceror. And no spell scribing...I'd probably be better off with wizard, at least I'd be able to scribe spells into my book and use any 0-3 level spells. But I'm actually starting to think that no wiz/sorc is best. 21 Bard, with a little fighter (4), or maybe even (9)?

But the most important thing is to have ALL the bard songs, Legionnaires, Hymn of Requiem, etc. It seems as though as long as i get 21 levels of Bard, I'll get all those songs. Now the question is, do I lose feats if I do this?

Storm has given a lot of good advice, so I'm going to concentrate on a couple of things:

Firstly ICE is a very bad idea. You're a Bard; you have some great spells for defence, like Mirror Image and Improved Invisibility, plus you can Inspire Defense if you need. ICE costs you needless points in Int (Bards get loads of skill points anyway) and two Feats. Forget it.

Secondly I don't think you're getting Bards. Bards are awesome Melee characters (and Archers for that matter, but you take less Bard there) due to their buffs and Inspirations. They are NOT great offensive Casters. The Songs are good, but to get greatest benefit you have to be up close and personal (Requiem needs to be within 20'). Your idea of hanging around the periphery of a fight is never going to work; for a start the AI will target you once you damage them and if you're in a group you will need to be close to them to spread the benefit of your Inspirations.

[Charraj]

I'd probably be better off with wizard, at least I'd be able to scribe spells into my book and use any 0-3 level spells.

With 3 levels of wizard, you would only have 0-2 level spells.

[chad878262]

Not getting the 3 sorc levels. Depending on race Bard 23/fighter 4/warlock 3 works especially if your going strength/melee. Could also go bard 21/F4/Dissonant Chord 5 which is kind of neat. Bard 30 is also perfectly fine! Honestly bard is powerful enough sorc 3.Isn't going to hurt that much, but it doesn't bring anything to the build either. You really just need to decide between strength based (get fighter 4 and try to get mithral heavy armor), edm (you can go cleric 3 instead of black guard if you don't want to rp evil which also brings the benefit of opening up expose weakness), Dex based (dread pirate) or full charisma based (bard/stormsinger/dissonant chord).

Any way you go with bard should be totally viable.

[Jo3Dang3r]

Thanks to everyone for the insights into this build. After reading the suggestions, I went strength and charisma based. ((If you notice a major screwup, please tell me, not to early to RCR))

Str 16
Dex 14
Con 14
Int 8
Wis 8
Cha 16

What Thorsson said, regarding having to be in the thick of things for the party melee'ers to bet the benefits of the bardic music, I figured, make it a melee bard. I'm going to have to research what armor I'm going to need, and probably not specialize in any specific weapon type. I played with the idea of weapon master for 7, but it seemed like a lot of feats for a character that is going to be a mediocre melee fighter at best.

Playing with the idea of going Dissonant Chord or Stormsinger, (Is it possible to do both?) That would only give you 15 levels of bard, so unsure if the character would get Hymm and Requiem.

And honestly, I almost tossed the whole idea to go with Storms suggestion...

""Hey Ken.
What would you say if I told you monk6 fighter12 wm5 whirling dervish7?
You get improved knockdown, expose weakness, some survival skill and actually rather a decent skill monkey.
You could opt to go the feint route if you invest heavily on Bluff.
I suggest going all in for strength after initial investments in dex and wis on it, unless you want to go without armor?"

Now that sounds like a fun character to play!

[chad878262]

Int 8? No... You are going to want medium armor probably. Go 12 dex and cast a spell for +4 or 13 with an item. Make con either 11 or 13 and put the extra points in int. You could lower charisma if you don't mind being item dependant.

Requiem requires bard songs, not bard levels so you should be able to take it with storm singer levels (though I'm pretty sure DC doesn't increase bard songs per day like it should).

Bard 26/fighter 4 seems the most popular melee split...mine is bard 21/DC5/F4 and I can tell you he is a melee monster, nothing mediocre about melee bards!

Have fun!

[Thorsson]

...nothing mediocre about melee bards!

QFT.

But that does not mean get Weapon Master. WM is only worth getting if you have Fighter bonus Feats or you get several of the Feats anyway. Almost all the qualifying Feats for WM are poor (if you have Tumble then Mobility & Spring Attack give you nothing) and you have plenty of other Feats you need more.

Presuming this is Human then 13 Dex and 13 Con is right. If I wasn't going for EDM then I'd start with 13 Cha as well. But I'd want to start with 18 Str.

Here's a possible split done 2 ways:
http://nwn2db.com/build/?228002
http://nwn2db.com/build/?228004

[Jo3Dang3r]

@BGTSCC Quality Control

Thanks, I didn't realize you need INT for medium armor. Wouldn't a medium armor proficiency be acquired with the fighter level?

How do you think a Bard15/DC5/SS10 would work out in melee? I haven't seen a build of that nature in the database yet. (grabbing a med armor prof along the way)

@Thorsson..I looked at both those builds, and came away with a better idea of what I want to do with my bard. (RCR, naturally)

Melee focused, STR and CHA based. Really liked that EDM bard. I wonder if going plane-touched will allow forgoing a couple Great Charismas. Anyways, thanks for the input, I suppose all that's left is to start building! (This weekend probably)

[chad878262]

I didn't realize you need INT for medium armor. Wouldn't a medium armor proficiency be acquired with the fighter level?

You don't need INT for medium armor, but bards get lots of nice skills and having an INT of 8 losses you 4 skill points at level 1 and 1 SP per level after that. You want listen, concentration, tumble, and umd maxed (well 30 tumble, but the rest max). You also want at least some lore (you are a bard after all!) maybe a social skill or two for rp and should try and get some spellcraft... You don't want to take your skill points away. Personally I would prefer INT be 12 or even 14, bit at least 10 as per Thorsson's builds. (And he is one of the best so you should really consider his advice!)

Medium armor comes from fighter levels and you will need to take battle caster or it gives you spell failure. However, if you ever get Mithral full plate or, more realistically Mithral half plate or banded mail you can get by with 10 or 12 DEX, cast nixies grace and shadow conjuration mage armor and enjoy your extra 2 or 3 ac over a breastplate and you get better ac then you would with a chain shirt, equivalent to a Mithral breastplate while focusing more on strength without worrying about DEX.

How do you think a Bard15/DC5/SS10 would work out in melee? I haven't seen a build of that nature in the database yet. (grabbing a med armor prof along the way)

Bard/SS/DC is more of a max charisma caster/song bard so I don't think you will find a strength build or one with medium armor proficiency. Also you do lose out on legionaires March, but gain a lot of cool things to use for your songs. You will not have the staying power or overall goodness of a melee bard because your spells for defense/offense will compete with dc / damage spells. However, these builds do exist in the builder and I think there is someone that plays one on the server. I think it makes use of clasp of thunder or one of the other reserve feats for sustainability.

Believe it or not a strength bard may be better overall then an edm bard. (Giving up edm damage boosts for sustained higher strength so higher attack bonus at all times and higher damage when edm is not active) However, both are exceptionally strong so if that's the one that interests you then go for it, naturally!

Have fun and, by the way I only recently joined QC and my views don't represent that of the qc team or anyone else's.

[Thorsson]

I should point out that Humans get extra skills, so a Human with Int 10 is like any other Race with Int12.

I'd also echo that you gain quite a bit with the non-EDM build to make up for the loss of EDM & DS:

1. 3AB & 60HP
2. Slightly better Saves and you don't fail Fort Saves on a 1
3. Extra, always on damage - 2 from WS and 3 from Str
4. Knockdown
5. Lingering Song

Although EDM version will get 1 extra spells on each level as well.

Let's face it, either will do well!