Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

Simple idea! Add to the DMs ruling thread a ruling:

The animal "language" is not a language, but is a substitute for animal empathy. You can use it to convey basic emotions and feels. You cannot convey complex ideas it it, or use it like a "language" and convey full sentences.

Because, really, its odd to see players (yes, that includes DMs. Its even weirder when DMs do it, for the player) using it as if it were any other language. Its not. Animals do not have a language!

Addition:

metaquad4 wrote:Maybe a "flavor feat" could be added (a bit more work than a DM ruling) that says that the "animal language" is animal empathy, and gives a little description on what it does.

That is how it is in lore isn't it? You can express emotions and maybe ideas but are unable to have any sense of a coherent conversation.

This is how it is in lore, yeah. But, I've seen players (characters and DMs) use it as an actual language. Thus, I feel this is needed to combat that.

Most animals don't have the intelligence for "language".

Lots of animals should be too stupid to even be charmed imo. They're only reactive to their immediate environments and don't really think. IE: Jellyfish, Hydra, Sponge, Starfish, etc.

Most of what PEOPLE think of as animals though, are fluffy, furry mammals they can keep as pets. Those are relatively smart in the "animal" group...




However... Humans are intelligent enough to know language and can sometimes understand animals even better than animals can.

If a human communicates a human concept to an animal, wouldn't it make sense for other humans to understand that concept?

Or is the flaw here that a human communicating a human concept to an animal is presumably met with understanding on behalf of the animal, who shouldn't be capable of such logic.



So in short, a wildshaped druid talking to a nonwildshaped druid should be able to communicate relatively effectively, both exchanging humanlike concepts... but a nonwildshaped druid talking with a squirrel would be met with pretty much nonsense.


Oh man. If only Wild Empathy were a class feature... That would sort all this confusion out.

The issue is animal isn't a language to begin with. Its not anything "spoken" persay (Definitely not written, as indicated by the " ''' "). Its just supposed to be used to convey feels, emotions, and very basic ideas like "hungry" or "lost" that animal empathy could (using body language/vocalizations, general demeanor, as animal empathy does).

Animal -is- a substitute for animal empathy. For all intensive purposes, it -is- animal empathy.

Maybe a "flavor feat" could be added (a bit more work than a DM ruling) that says that the "animal language" is animal empathy, and gives a little description on what it does.

Can I hijack this thread to throw Arcane into the mix as well? As far as I am aware, this language is the written text for magic spells/spell books. It is not really a spoken language either!

I agree with your proposal of a DM ruling on the matter

Some animals might be able to convey more complex matters than other animals based on their intelligence score, but none would approach regular speech.

No animals have an int score of above 1-2 (they arn't considered animals after that, at least in 3.5 D&D rules).

"Animals" (whatever they are considered with an int score of 3+. . .magical beasts?) that do have an int score above that (buffed, using certain templates, or awakened) still wouldn't use animal language though, since animal "language" is not a language, as I mentioned above (animal do not have a language to call their own), rather it is a substitute for animal empathy. They'd use whatever other language.

At least for awakened:
"An awakened tree or animal can speak one language that you know, plus one additional language that you know per point of Intelligence bonus (if any)."

Edit:
Apparently, animals with more than 2 int become magical beasts.

Yes, but an animal with an int score of 2, should have more option than one with 1 - they shouldn't be able to convey full human sentences, but a wise druid will know which animal to seek out for the best answer.

By score, I mean, actually 2 INT. A -4 Ability modifier. A 2 INT Score.

I'm not sure how much answers one would be able to get from an animal. I suppose a wise druid would either awaken the animal or make do with "body language/vocalizations, general demeanor" (Animal Empathy).

Agreed, druid lore is one of those complicated things that should have a few rulings (and a thread with stickied guidelines as well, if anyone could be bothered with making one)

Selande wrote: Most of what PEOPLE think of as animals though, are fluffy, furry mammals they can keep as pets.

Is this the part where we start posting images of cute hairy tarantulas and other multi legged creatures?

Thids wrote:Agreed, druid lore is one of those complicated things that should have a few rulings (and a thread with stickied guidelines as well, if anyone could be bothered with making one)

Selande wrote: Most of what PEOPLE think of as animals though, are fluffy, furry mammals they can keep as pets.

Is this the part where we start posting images of cute hairy tarantulas and other multi legged creatures?

Oddly enough most creatures with more than four legs are all considered vermin right? Spiders. Insects. All that fun stuff. Also funny enough, those creatures don't let you speak to them using "Animal language". You need a special ability to speak with Vermin instead. (There's been entire Prestige Classes written on this, I'm pretty sure.)

So yeah, Animals in DnD really are the furry, scaly, or feathery critters with internal skeletons.

And personally, if I was a Druid and I wanted a good answer to a question, I'd ask a Crow.

Fully agreed. I always cringe when I see people actually talking with animal.

Tsidkenu wrote:Can I hijack this thread to throw Arcane into the mix as well? As far as I am aware, this language is the written text for magic spells/spell books. It is not really a spoken language either!

Actually, I'm not sure why we even have a language called "arcane". Does it actually exist in lore? Lore says that a lot of magic is written in different languages. Particularly draconic, infernal and elven.

Read this from the elven language section:
http://bgtscc.net/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=18160

Elven is also well suited for magic because it can precisely express ideas and concepts that cannot be seen. Since wizards and other arcane casters wishing to develop spells must conceptualize the desired results with perfect clarity, it is no wonder elves have a knack for magical research.

Funny story, go to the minotar maze with a ranger/druid... You'll understand the minotars because they speak animal...

Maybe not relevant to the conversation, but I cringe every time I see it.

Whenever I want to have a fireside cigar and champagne with an animal, I cast Fox's Cunning on them.

Then they're as smart as most woodelves and orcs.