Dragon Warrior Changes

[metaquad4]

So! I was talking in the IRC Channel with the usual suspects, and we stumbled across the topic of dragon warriors being underpowered. Some changes were proposed, and I'd like to share them with the world, and hopefully the developers, so that this great class can become. . .well. . .something worth taking.

The HD, BAB Progression, and Skills all seem fine enough.

Currently the feat progression is this:

Class Abilities:
Level 1: Dragon Disciple, Dragon Breath, Resistance to Energy 5
Level 2: Dragon Breath 2/day
Level 3: Immune to Fear
Level 4: Elemental weapon +1
Level 5: Resistance to Energy 10
Level 6: Dragon Breath 3/day
Level 7: Resistance to Energy 15
Level 8: Blind-Fight
Level 9: Elemental weapon +1d4
Level 10: Resistance to Energy 20

I would propose it be changed to this:

Class Abilities:
Level 1: Dragon Disciple, Dragon Breath (5 Minute Cooldown), Resistance to Energy 5
Level 2: Dragon Scales (+1 Natural AC)
Level 3: Immune to Fear, Aura of Fear 1 Use/Day
Level 4: Elemental weapon +1
Level 5: Resistance to Energy 10, Dragon Breath (3.5 Minute Cooldown), Aura of Fear 2 Use/day
Level 6: Dragon Scales (+2 Natural AC)
Level 7: Resistance to Energy 15, Dragon Scales (+2 DC, 1/- DR)
Level 8: Blind-Fight, Dragon Breath (2.5 Minute Cooldown)
Level 9: Elemental weapon +1d4, Dragon Scales (+3 Natural AC)
Level 10: Resistance to Energy 20, Dragon Breath (2 Minute Cooldown), Aura of Fear 3 Use/day, Dragon Scales (+3 Natural AC, 1/- DR)

Dragon Scales:
At level 2, you gain small, almost wrymling-like, dragon scales along your cheeks, chest, back, arms, and legs. These scales confer 1 Natural AC at level 2, 2 Natural AC at level 6, 3 Natural AC at level 9, and 1/- DR at level 10. The natural AC stacks with all other sources of natural AC, including enchantment bonuses.

Aura of Fear:
At level 3, you learn to release a supernatural aura of fear, akin to a dragon's. You force all enemies within 50 feet to make a will save (DC=10+Dragon Warrior Level+CON) or become feared for 10 rounds. At levels 5 and 10, you gain an additional use of this ability. Use of this ability is an instant action. (((Could be changed to standard action too)))

[NeOmega]

I am playing a dragon warrior right now, and find it underwhelming, I like these changes. I have yet to use the dragon breath, because it just isn't that great., It would be nice if it were a recharge use. If not that, how about some SR? Don't dragons have SR?

It does have high BAB, but I am asking myself is 10 DW levels better than 10 more fighter levels with 5 more feats? Well, the ER is nice... that is 4 free feats and the extra energy damage is nice, that is two free feats, but they are not exactly "choice" feats, they are "progression" feat.

So i think it is a bit balanced, but I see no lore or balance need for blind fight being thrown in there. I'd suggest pulling that if the new changes are implemented.

[metaquad4]

Well, dragons do get blindfighting in nwn2, and blindsense in PnP. That is likely why dragon warriors have it. It could be pulled I suppose, it wouldn't make too much of a difference for PvE, its mostly a PvP feat (unless you PvE ghosts/displacer beasts/spirits a lot). Don't think there is too much cause to remove it tbh.

[NeOmega]

Upon further review, I think the dragon scales are too much. And Aura of fear is neat, but fear is a horrible effect, because it gives enemies the survival instinct they don't normally have.

[Hoihe]

Upon further review, I think the dragon scales are too much. And Aura of fear is neat, but fear is a horrible effect, because it gives enemies the survival instinct they don't normally have.

It would be handy for a good aligned dragon warrior wishing to avoid combat though. Although I no longer have a character with DW levels, I do fairly love the suggestions.

Do have to agree the scales may be a bit much, but on the other hand they come at level 10. They might require the class to have more rigorous requirements, akin to Palemaster maybe.

Dragon breath with cooldown would be awesome. Previously I only used it as a quick burst for boss fights, if even for that. Cooldown based would have allowed me to use it more freely and liberally in my fights.

[metaquad4]

Palemaster doesn't have any rigorous requirements. Or any requirements at all, Hoihe

About the AC, I think that PRCs that offer defensive prowess to martial characters are lacking, so, I figured this would be nice. So far, we have. . .

-Dwarven Defender (Dwarf Only)
-Breach Gnome (Gimmicky)
-Bodyguard (More about protecting others)
-Anointed Knight/Warrior of Darkness (2 or 3 /- DR and toughness (Pretty crummy if you are taking it to enhance defenses). Sort of a balance between defense and offense. Similar to what I envisioned with dragonslayer. Decent defenses, decent offenses, some utility/RP flavor)
-Another I may or may not have missed (note: none sneaker martial classes)

Dwarven Defender is really the only solid one.

I figured that a progressive defense would be nice. You can't really get the full effect from a dip, but if you invest in the class, you get a nice return. 3 AC and 1 DR/- shouldn't be too op, but it should help out with survivability issues.

[matelener]

I agree that dragon warrior is very underpowered and simply adding a progressive and stacking AC bonus would make this class balanced.

+3 AC for 10 levels sounds perfectly fine and it would fix the lack of PRCs for STR based characters that give a bonus to AC.

As a side note, fear aura should be based on CHA and not CON. Also, introduction of dragon breath's cooldown (instead of uses per day mechanic) is a minor gameplay change - you won't be using it often anyway and most of the time you'll do much less damage with it than by your melee attacks. At least that's the case at higher levels, though I can imagine it being worth to cast at level 15 with a simple build like 5 fighter / 10 DW.

[NeOmega]

Palemaster doesn't have any rigorous requirements. Or any requirements at all, Hoihe

Palemaster has low BAB.

Really, any class with high BAB should not be getting tons of goodies... ...High BAB is the best goody.

[metaquad4]

Ne0mega, I actually can't. Like. . .I can't. I just can't. You gave me an aneurysm and a heart attack at once.

But, naturally, you are right. Lets remove 80% of all feats from all H. BAB classes. H. BAB is its own reward.

[NeOmega]

But, naturally, you are right. Lets remove 80% of all feats from all H. BAB classes. H. BAB is its own reward.

Ahh, internet forums. I love the smell of sarcastic flames in the morning.

Notice how my calls to temper the *added* goodies to a high BAB class were translated in strawmanese to now removing 80% of feats from High BAB classes.

Furthermore, it is hyperbole to call the dragon warrior "very underpowered". It is slightly underpowered.

[Sylvver]

I'm also in the camp that considers this change too drastic.

Palemasters have rather severe RP restrictions and associated dangers, this class does not. Furthermore, that there exists a stronger PRC doesn't mean everything needs to align to it - Karond has given examples of what a DD can do - I don't think it's wise to balance everything around a class that effortlessly invalidates the majority of the server's content.

I'm not sure how reflex saves look on most enemies at the level 30 range, but the breath weapon looks to average to about 105 damage for failed saves - certainly a useful tool for encounters with multiple enemies, enough that it can outstrip your melee damage on large groups. The CD change on this would make it great for such use.

Blind fight isn't that amazing in PvE, sure, but it has it's uses, and it shines in PvP. With all the extra feats you'd get with, say, 10 levels of fighter instead of DW, you're likely to pick it up anyhow.

Overall I think the scales just need to be toned down - maybe swap the AC and the DR, effectively giving 1 AC and 3/- DR at level 10?

If you want to keep it at this defensive boost, then pull up the requirements with some worthless feats (ala tempest).

[grunts]

The class should absolutely get SR at level 10. +3 AC is too much for a class that gets +1d4 damage and a bunch of goodies though. Your changes are good I would just make a few edits:

-Remove the AC bonus at lv 2 to reduce dip potential, replace the AC at lv 10 with max SR(and give SR back to WoD and AK for that matter, casters have it way too easy on bgtscc).
-Remove Blindfight, the class is getting too much
-Give the class real prereqs.

If you want to make a mediocre class better you have to add some prereqs. 2 lore to suddenly start breathing fire and growing scales is not good enough. It also makes no sense for the class to have tumble or diplomacy, give them listen instead.

The changes are already starting to overshadow AK/WoD so maybe make Blindfight a prereq. to take the class instead of giving it to them for free like WoD. Increase lore req. to 8.

[NeOmega]

Overall I think the scales just need to be toned down - maybe swap the AC and the DR, effectively giving 1 AC and 3/- DR at level 10?

I kind of like it... ...because my current DW is going to be taking epic DR's.

[matelener]

So, let's sum up what you gain with AK/WoD vs DW (and I find AK/WoD a well balanced class)

the common benefits (from a point view of a fighter):

- acess to tumble
- high will save
- 1d4 weapon enchantment (btw, people need to stop treating it as if it would be "a lot")
- free blind-fight

Now, the benefits of AK/WoD in comparison to DW:

- 4+int skill points (DW has 2+int)
- access to spellcraft and heal (AK) / Hide+MS+Bluff (WoD)
- Toughness and Alertness (AK) / Dash ( WoD)
- 3/- DR
- 2 epic feats (if the last two levels of AK/WoD are in the epics and probably in 99% cases they are)

What DW brings to the table:

- immunity to fear
- resistance to one element: 20
- dragon breath 3/day
- doesn't have a feat requirement (For AK/WoD you have to pick Iron Will)

There's absolutely no contest, those four benefits above are very mild. The addition of a stacking natural +3 AC buff is alright, it would make the DW class mechanically distinguishable and in some cases desirable.

[Hoihe]

The class should absolutely get SR at level 10. +3 AC is too much for a class that gets +1d4 damage and a bunch of goodies though. Your changes are good I would just make a few edits:

-Remove the AC bonus at lv 2 to reduce dip potential, replace the AC at lv 10 with max SR(and give SR back to WoD and AK for that matter, casters have it way too easy on bgtscc).
-Remove Blindfight, the class is getting too much
-Give the class real prereqs.

If you want to make a mediocre class better you have to add some prereqs. 2 lore to suddenly start breathing fire and growing scales is not good enough. It also makes no sense for the class to have tumble or diplomacy, give them listen instead.

The changes are already starting to overshadow AK/WoD so maybe make Blindfight a prereq. to take the class instead of giving it to them for free like WoD. Increase lore req. to 8.

Grunts

The class has perfect reasons to have diplomacy and tumble.

In Pen and Paper, Dragon Warriors get a charisma bonus when talking with dragons of the same blood as they are.

Furthermore, dragon warriors often share hideout with dragons, or at least very closeby. This means mountains most of the time. Now, tumble is the best standin for climb.