Scary intimidation rolls.

[Lazarus]

I regulary try and use social skill rolls when interacting with other characters in-game. I think they represent my character as much as class or feats, besides I invest in them so why not. I always ask (Rare occasion I forget to ask, shame on me and sorry for that!) before using them if it is ok to use skill rolls, and of course everyone can refuse or ignore them according to the rules of the server and that is ok. However when I ask majority rule out use of intimidation. I get it though, players don't like their characters loose face or hurt getting told to shove off by a stranger or something. People have used intimidation rolls against my character and almost all cases I can't encounter them succesfully which kinda sucks, since I try to play the tough fighter guy. I'm not suppose to get scared by anything that isn't a dragon right? Still I do my best to step back OOC and just roll with it, because it is just role-play. My character is relatively new and so have little face to loose, so I guess it is easier on me.

My question is should I just stop trying to use intimidation and save it for DM events and such, or should I keep trying to use it it, depsite the OOC trauma attached to it. Should I just start investing my skill points on some other skill instead? Do more experienced players have advice who have perhaps faced same kind of situation?

[Hoihe]

I regulary try and use social skill rolls when interacting with other characters in-game. I think they represent my character as much as class or feats, besides I invest in them so why not. I always ask (Rare occasion I forget to ask, shame on me and sorry for that!) before using them if it is ok to use skill rolls, and of course everyone can refuse or ignore them according to the rules of the server and that is ok. However when I ask majority rule out use of intimidation. I get it though, players don't like their characters loose face or hurt getting told to shove off by a stranger or something. People have used intimidation rolls against my character and almost all cases I can't encounter them succesfully which kinda sucks, since I try to play the tough fighter guy. I'm not suppose to get scared by anything that isn't a dragon right? Still I do my best to step back OOC and just roll with it, because it is just role-play. My character is relatively new and so have little face to loose, so I guess it is easier on me.

My question is should I just stop trying to use intimidation and save it for DM events and such, or should I keep trying to use it it, depsite the OOC trauma attached to it. Should I just start investing my skill points on some other skill instead? Do more experienced players have advice who have perhaps faced same kind of situation?

People don't really know how to use the social skill rolls, hence why it's usually under DM discretion.

Check
You can change another’s behavior with a successful check. Your Intimidate check is opposed by the target’s modified level check (1d20 + character level or Hit Dice + target’s Wisdom bonus [if any] + target’s modifiers on saves against fear). If you beat your target’s check result, you may treat the target as friendly, but only for the purpose of actions taken while it remains intimidated. (That is, the target retains its normal attitude, but will chat, advise, offer limited help, or advocate on your behalf while intimidated. See the Diplomacy skill, above, for additional details.) The effect lasts as long as the target remains in your presence, and for 1d6×10 minutes afterward. After this time, the target’s default attitude toward you shifts to unfriendly (or, if normally unfriendly, to hostile).

As you can see, to intimidate a level 30 PC you must at least have 31 do so, barring negative wisdom or fear bonuses.

Also:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/diplomacy.htm
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/bluff.htm
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/Intimidate.htm
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/skills.htm
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/usingSkills.htm

[Lazarus]

I regulary try and use social skill rolls when interacting with other characters in-game. I think they represent my character as much as class or feats, besides I invest in them so why not. I always ask (Rare occasion I forget to ask, shame on me and sorry for that!) before using them if it is ok to use skill rolls, and of course everyone can refuse or ignore them according to the rules of the server and that is ok. However when I ask majority rule out use of intimidation. I get it though, players don't like their characters loose face or hurt getting told to shove off by a stranger or something. People have used intimidation rolls against my character and almost all cases I can't encounter them succesfully which kinda sucks, since I try to play the tough fighter guy. I'm not suppose to get scared by anything that isn't a dragon right? Still I do my best to step back OOC and just roll with it, because it is just role-play. My character is relatively new and so have little face to loose, so I guess it is easier on me.

My question is should I just stop trying to use intimidation and save it for DM events and such, or should I keep trying to use it it, depsite the OOC trauma attached to it. Should I just start investing my skill points on some other skill instead? Do more experienced players have advice who have perhaps faced same kind of situation?

Most players do not know how to use social skill rolls. Social skill rolls were designed against NPCs, too.

One particular thing people forget about Intimidate that it is NOT countered by will saves.

It is countered by Hit dice/2 + wisdom bonus + saves against fear

Which means being immune to fear makes you un-intimidatable.

I myself thought it was countered by a single will roll myself. So for example if I roll against intimidate I must make a will roll and add half my level count and wisdom bonus to it ( In my character case that is -1 ) right? Good point about immunity too.

[Hoihe]

I regulary try and use social skill rolls when interacting with other characters in-game. I think they represent my character as much as class or feats, besides I invest in them so why not. I always ask (Rare occasion I forget to ask, shame on me and sorry for that!) before using them if it is ok to use skill rolls, and of course everyone can refuse or ignore them according to the rules of the server and that is ok. However when I ask majority rule out use of intimidation. I get it though, players don't like their characters loose face or hurt getting told to shove off by a stranger or something. People have used intimidation rolls against my character and almost all cases I can't encounter them succesfully which kinda sucks, since I try to play the tough fighter guy. I'm not suppose to get scared by anything that isn't a dragon right? Still I do my best to step back OOC and just roll with it, because it is just role-play. My character is relatively new and so have little face to loose, so I guess it is easier on me.

My question is should I just stop trying to use intimidation and save it for DM events and such, or should I keep trying to use it it, depsite the OOC trauma attached to it. Should I just start investing my skill points on some other skill instead? Do more experienced players have advice who have perhaps faced same kind of situation?

Most players do not know how to use social skill rolls. Social skill rolls were designed against NPCs, too.

One particular thing people forget about Intimidate that it is NOT countered by will saves.

It is countered by Hit dice/2 + wisdom bonus + saves against fear

Which means being immune to fear makes you un-intimidatable.

I myself thought it was countered by a single will roll myself. So for example if I roll against intimidate I must make a will roll and add half my level count and wisdom bonus to it ( In my character case that is -1 ) right? Good point about immunity too.

I remembered wrong. I checked 20srd and edited my post.

The actual save against intimidate is:

Intimidate rank (including modifiers, which includes size) vs HD/character level + Wis + mods (including size)


Knowing this you can easily counter being intimidated by a level 10 halfling rogue who has 20 intimidate as a level 30 drow/half-orc (just to give an example of how it'd otherwise be a funny scene)

[Lazarus]

All of a sudden these skills became more complex and confusing to use than I thought. I have no pnp or dnd background prior playing nwn so I didn't thought it this way. Perhaps there are better reasons people don't want to use social skills after all. Ugh..

[DM Pun Pun]

Intimidate is the only awkward check. A majority of skill rolls are straight up, give or take bonuses and penalties dependent on the situation.

Rolls are under DM discretion because people would use rolls to force players to do something they are not on-board with doing, which would lead to abusive and detrimental RP. That said, if players agree with each other to "rollplay", its not against the rules and they can do so, but we won't enforce them unless we are the ones to issue the check.

[Hoihe]

All of a sudden these skills became more complex and confusing to use than I thought. I have no pnp or dnd background prior playing nwn so I didn't thought it this way. Perhaps there are better reasons people don't want to use social skills after all. Ugh..

Yep! It's not to say they are useless. They are very useful. But do not make skill rolls to use them, rather RP accordingly. Someone without much intimidate training would do his intimidations in a pretty plain way "If you do not hand it over, I bash your skull in!" (and just yell it while waving your sword) vs trained intimidate "- much more scary variant of the above, maybe emphasized with some gesticulation and concsious use of intimidating physical features-".

[Lazarus]

I would not try force anyone to do something they are not comfortable with a social skill roll. I mostly use it to get out of a situation, or to add flavor in a way to a situation in hand, or to get a better price or standing on a deal etc . I'd never do anything riddicilous with them on success.

They way I've been doing intimidate i.e is to make a threat or equal, then the roll and emote or or say something after. If the roll is high say something confident or if it is a complete fail say or emote something akward.

[Moltrazahn]

It should also be mentioned that Immunity to Fear will prevent intimidate from working.

Hidden: show

Intimidate (Cha)

Check
You can change another’s behavior with a successful check. Your Intimidate check is opposed by the target’s modified level check (1d20 + character level or Hit Dice + target’s Wisdom bonus [if any] + target’s modifiers on saves against fear). If you beat your target’s check result, you may treat the target as friendly, but only for the purpose of actions taken while it remains intimidated. (That is, the target retains its normal attitude, but will chat, advise, offer limited help, or advocate on your behalf while intimidated. See the Diplomacy skill, above, for additional details.) The effect lasts as long as the target remains in your presence, and for 1d6×10 minutes afterward. After this time, the target’s default attitude toward you shifts to unfriendly (or, if normally unfriendly, to hostile).

If you fail the check by 5 or more, the target provides you with incorrect or useless information, or otherwise frustrates your efforts. (Dont you dare start rolling again, spamming is bad! Accept failure!)

Demoralize Opponent
You can also use Intimidate to weaken an opponent’s resolve in combat. To do so, make an Intimidate check opposed by the target’s modified level check (see above). If you win, the target becomes shaken for 1 round. A shaken character takes a –2 penalty on attack rolls, ability checks, and saving throws. You can intimidate only an opponent that you threaten in melee combat and that can see you. (Man-of-Arms feat i believe)

Action
Varies. Changing another’s behavior requires 1 minute of interaction. Intimidating an opponent in combat is a standard action.

Try Again
Optional, but not recommended because retries usually do not work. Even if the initial check succeeds, the other character can be intimidated only so far, and a retry doesn’t help. If the initial check fails, the other character has probably become more firmly resolved to resist the intimidator, and a retry is futile. (No, seriously! stop spamming!)

Special
You gain a +4 bonus on your Intimidate check for every size category that you are larger than your target. Conversely, you take a –4 penalty on your Intimidate check for every size category that you are smaller than your target. (We dont have this)
A character immune to fear can’t be intimidated, nor can nonintelligent creatures.
If you have the Persuasive feat, you get a +2 bonus on Intimidate checks.
The DC to intimidate any creature whose attitude is fanatic is increased by +20. (See Diplomacy.)

Synergy
If you have 5 or more ranks in Bluff, you get a +2 bonus on Intimidate checks.(we dont got this)

[BigJ]

However when I ask majority rule out use of intimidation. I get it though, players don't like their characters loose face or hurt getting told to shove off by a stranger or something.

Along with the minority that 'just like to win no matter what', I think a lot of other players think of intimidate as some kind of fear spell, which it isn't. I think of it as 'presence' and if someone rolls high against me I wont run away afraid I'll just use a little more caution and respect in my RP (And I wont often counter-roll, just RP along with yours. And there HAS to be RP beforehand, not just "Urggh I am threatening and fierce!" then a roll.)

Same thing when I do the roll for Barbaccas. Like you I adjust his own RP with regard to his own Intimidate roll. He rolls high and whatever threat he's making is "stern, determined and with threatening intent", he rolls low then the threat is made half-heartedly.

Also the fact its a Skill V Stat roll puts some people off, especially using will saves which is low on all the hardened warriors out there, which doesn't really make sense but it just the mechanics.

I have no pnp or dnd background prior playing nwn so I didn't thought it this way.

Neither have I, the Bioware games are what lead me here too. The past few years I've been lurking, researching and googling to build up my knowledge (which still has big gaps) because the roleplay community appealed to me, I can tell you it was worth the effort Lazarus. There maybe days when it doesn't quite come-off, but the days when it does are really rewarding

BigJ

[Mac]

Hey, Someone finally posted on this!

"I have no pnp or dnd background prior playing nwn so I didn't thought it this way."

I have a lot (25 years) of PnP background and for years, I have felt Intimidate is the most abused skill on the server. Not that I feel it is an issue either.

-From Enworld- "Pretty sure that one of the 'official' books (DMG? PHB?) says flat out, social skills should never dictate player actions under any/most circumstances. In general, I agree with this."

I could not find a recent ruling on this, But that was always how I ran my games.

Intimidate like diplomacy is really a skill meant for NPCs. That's why there is no (clear) counter roll. When Intimidate or diplomacy is used on players things can get complicated. To resist Intimidate, On BG I just roll a will save.

The use of Intimidate (and diplomacy) on players is a great RP tool. If you Intimidate me I'm scared. I will likely treat you with more respect and think twice about crossing you. I may even run if I thought you were going to attack me. BUT.... "social skills should CAN never dictate player actions" It is up to the player being intimidated to RP the situation accordingly. You may be scared but that wont stop you from doing X. Or maybe it will?

The one doing the intimidating should never expect another player to act as they wish simply because they are intimidated. This goes against player free will.

Diplomacy is more or less the same. Cant say it is used (or abused) much, To bad cause I would so max Diplomacy if it worked like this...

Player 1 : "Say, best freind! Can I have your +6 vorpal sword" Diplomacy check (86)
Player 2 : "Of Course my good buddy! Here is my most prized weapon" Will save (14)

[Lazarus]

Hey, Someone finally posted on this!

"I have no pnp or dnd background prior playing nwn so I didn't thought it this way."

I have a lot (25 years) of PnP background and for years, I have felt Intimidate is the most abused skill on the server. Not that I feel it is an issue either.

-From Enworld- "Pretty sure that one of the 'official' books (DMG? PHB?) says flat out, social skills should never dictate player actions under any/most circumstances. In general, I agree with this."

I could not find a recent ruling on this, But that was always how I ran my games.

Intimidate like diplomacy is really a skill meant for NPCs. That's why there is no (clear) counter roll. When Intimidate or diplomacy is used on players things can get complicated. To resist Intimidate, On BG I just roll a will save.

The use of Intimidate (and diplomacy) on players is a great RP tool. If you Intimidate me I'm scared. I will likely treat you with more respect and think twice about crossing you. I may even run if I thought you were going to attack me. BUT.... "social skills should CAN never dictate player actions" It is up to the player being intimidated to RP the situation accordingly. You may be scared but that wont stop you from doing X. Or maybe it will?

The one doing the intimidating should never expect another player to act as they wish simply because they are intimidated. This goes against player free will.

Diplomacy is more or less the same. Cant say it is used (or abused) much, To bad cause I would so max Diplomacy if it worked like this...

Player 1 : "Say, best freind! Can I have your +6 vorpal sword" Diplomacy check (86)
Player 2 : "Of Course my good buddy! Here is my most prized weapon" Will save (14)

I agree completely, which is good players here can decide wheter to act on a roll or not, if someone would make such absurd proposal i.e. Social skills might effect how you react, but not dictate it. Now then...Where can I get that vorpal sword?

[Velaris]

Hey, just reading this through and it seems a little unclear to me about the save part.

Though it was clearly stated up higher in the thread that will saves are NOT used,

"One particular thing people forget about Intimidate that it is NOT countered by will saves.
It is countered by Hit dice/2 + wisdom bonus + saves against fear"

I am still seeing references to using will saves as the counter to intimidate.

"To resist Intimidate, On BG I just roll a will save."

"Also the fact its a Skill V Stat roll puts some people off, especially using will saves which is low on all the hardened warriors out there, which doesn't really make sense but it just the mechanics."

So...perhaps some people are not understanding this correctly either? Can we get a clear answer on this?

I agree that will save is ridiculous to use against intimidate, especially as a high level fighter. If someone rattles their sword at you, you're just as likely to rattle right back, so maybe you'd counter with your own intimidate.
If we're using a stat vs skill roll, I'm going to use my int against intimidate with my wizard, since he'll likely try to think his way out of a situation.
Or cha with a bard, or bluff skill with a rogue, since that is how they're used to dealing with troublesome situations.

*also should be noted that rp and racial considerations, ie how you play your toon might come into play. If my toon doesn't like a specific character or race, I'm not going to go along with what you say, no matter how you try to present your case.

[matelener]

Any discussion what should be rolled against intimidate / diplomacy skills according to pnp is pointless. It's not hard to achieve 60+ points in those skills with epic focus and specialized gear and nobody will be able to defend himself (except those immune to fear). Then, there's the problem of what actually is being emoted or said to intimidate someone, it might not be considered by most threatening at all or be illogical etc.

[Hoihe]

Once more...


Intimidate STAT (not roll) vs Hit dice (character level in our case) + 1d20 + wis + fear mod.

So, to intimidate a level 30 dude, you need 31 base intimidate.