Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

Hello,
This post reflects my opinion on the matter of Difficulty in a D&D, Role-play game setting (which is applicable to BGTSCC). I welcome debate on the subject, as discussion often leads to insight and a widening of view.

Have you ever wondered why DCs (Difficulty Challenge) exists? I'm sure you have, and quickly, you answered your query: it exists as a concrete value in which to apply a success or failure, against. D&D is a game of challenges, both in terms of Mechanics and Role-play.

So my opinion, here, this discussion, is about how Difficulty and Challenges are present in both Mechanics and Role-play, the latter being the more interesting and more important, of the two, in relation to our Server BGTSCC.

I present to you the following quote (emphasis is mine):

DM Guide, 3.5e, Chp. 2 - Using the Rules wrote:The whole game can be boiled down to the characters trying to accomplish various tasks,
the DM determining how difficult those tasks are to accomplish,
and the dice determining success or failure.
While combat and spellcasting have their own rules for how
difficult tasks are, skill checks and ability checks handle just about
everything else.

The NWN2 Engine handles and reports to us the Players, the computation of DCs, the success and failure that we build our Toon's for, and from which we can design better Builds. There is a certain Mastery to this, and many Players on BGTSCC are very skilled at it. There is an entire Thread Section on this Forum, and I do not think in this Post I need to further explain the attention given to building for Mechanical DC power.

But when it comes to Events, Role-play and especially Skill-based actions/interactions, it often falls to the Dungeon Masters in order to prepare and apply DCs, and then let the Dice determine the end result (a matter of Chance). I cannot express how important this is, for the following reasons:

• - It is fair.
  - It is open.
  - It is final (except when a DC is allowed a reroll).

It is a tricky issue, I will say. How does one apply Difficulty to Role-play, to the forwarding of a Storyline, to the outcome of 1 or Many PC's that wish to influence an outcome? Can DCs even be applied to both simple Mechanics as well as Role-play? I say yes, and yes in the sense it should never be otherwise.

Below, I've copied out the DM Guide page of Difficulty Class Examples, so you can see for yourself the Range of which DCs can be applied to Skill Checks:
This list is important, for many reasons as a Guide, but in my opinion, for one very particular reason: it shows the Variety of Abilities and Skills that are needed, in order to accomplish the infinite number of Challenges our PCs will come to face. Or, another way of saying it is: not all PCs are equal, nor possess the necessary Skills/Abilities to face All Challenges.

Let's face it head on: Strengths and weakness, success and failure. Greater or lesser chances for realizing outcomes.

Yet unfortunately, this is not always the case. What do I mean?

In my opinion, far too much Role-play falls upon the skills of the Player, and not, the Skills/Abilities of the Player Character. This is problematic. But the wonderful thing is, it is easily fixed.

The success and failure of Role-play—the Skills and Abilities we apply when RPing our PCs—can be regulated by Difficulty. Actions can create/inspire Challenges, these Challenges can be Rated by DCs, and the PC can apply their Skills/Abilities to overcome that DC.

Will your PC attempt to parlay with the enemy? Will you PC attempt to sail into the storm? Will the Group of PCs attempt to operate the gnomish contraption in order to unlock the secret gate? Will the Group of PCs attempt to strategize against the Enemy Army? Will the PC observe the tone of voice and body language of the Enemy, in order to determine if their is truth or lies being told? Will your PC orate a passionate speech about honor in battle, and will that divinely inspired voice bolster the Group with inspiration to victory?

What is it with these questions?!? Well, these are all things WE, as the Players, are maybe no good at what-so-ever. However, our PCs may be spectacularly Skilled at these Actions...and how do we see that manifested in the Game? Can we as Players state our PC will "...make a great oration where her Charisma and Faith are applied to their fullest skill?", and have that be taken into account, yet without the actual speech being written or said? Similarly, should our PC have a 30 INT, can we simply APPLY the PC's genius, or do we have to also be Geniuses in order to "make a difference?" This is solved by a setup of Difficulty Challenges, based on the formula of a DC number, in order to beat, using the Dice—simple D&D structure within the Game Design.

This should be used, in contrast to, a Single or Group of PCs stating they are going to take an Action, provide information on such action, provide a plan, show up in either IG or Forum instance, and then see that Action play out with success, and no fair, open and final Difficulty being public and shown, where success/failure is obvious and undeniable.

As well, any Storyline—whether Player or DM built—should not be held above the Difficulty of the Challenge. Why is this important? Well, from the Player angle, it then does not allow any specific or certain Players to seem to get a favored advantage to their Actions—a Dice, after all, decided the outcome/result. From the DM angle, it prevents against railroading of Events—a Dice, after all, decided the outcome/result.

And again, I stress that these Difficulties should be as open and public as possible. If you can imagine, all of us, sitting around a Table and playing D&D, it would either be a DM saying "You must beat a DC of xx..." or, we would see them rolling a DC behind the blind. In each case, we understand that Outcomes are not biased (as well, we give faith to the DM to be fair).

On the issue of "roll-playing versus role-playing," I understand the concern. I recommend reading this articale, and this article, and this. Essentially I am calling out for more Balance, between the 2 approaches, as currently, I do question that the current Paradigm is more in the Free-form camp. And it is fair to request that our Character Sheets start amounting to something (both good and bad...and each having effects on our Role- and Role- play).

I will wrap this up and reiterate my point: this Game (Persistent World based on D&D) fails if Difficulty is not upheld, in a balance of Narrative and Dice (chance). Tools have been designed to employ a fairness in all Actions related to success/failure, and this too should be reflected in more pure Role-play instances, and not just purely Engine mechanics.

Not sure fairness is in tact when a player or DM decide what skills / attributes are the counter versus what's there mechanically by default.

Two quick thoughts:

A) Player and character match up in terms of things like Intelligence, Wisdom, Charisma, Diplomacy, Lore, Spellcraft, Bluff, Sense Motive, etc. helps keep suspension of disbelief alive. The connection between roll and role play.

B) Roleplay is often one of the only areas where lvl 1s are as effective as lvl 30s. I am afraid of more of a sense that levels are required to have any sort of impact.

Aspect of Sorrow wrote:Not sure fairness is in tact when a player or DM decide what skills / attributes are the counter versus what's there mechanically by default.

I think if the NWN2 engine supplies a digital DC, then that is already good news. But in pure RP situations that reflect upon the outcome of Events and Campaigns, they often are absent (or secret).

Asmodea wrote:A) Player and character match up in terms of things like Intelligence, Wisdom, Charisma, Diplomacy, Lore, Spellcraft, Bluff, Sense Motive, etc. helps keep suspension of disbelief alive. The connection between roll and role play.

This is interesting. Though I would wish I could in RL equal a 28 point Ability in Charisma, I'm afraid I will have to settle for a...16!!!

But seriously, maybe, just maybe, a RL Player can match up to their Human PC/toon, but how do we even begin to equal an Elf (no need to sleep; centuries old perspective; etc.) or a dwarf (lots of hair; can drink their weight in ale and still converse; live underground; etc.). These are aspects we role-play, for fun, but could never truly "match up." At least, as I see it.

Asmodea wrote:B) Roleplay is often one of the only areas where lvl 1s are as effective as lvl 30s. I am afraid of more of a sense that levels are required to have any sort of impact.

Well, I'd prefer to say that "role-play is equal no matter whether you are lvl 1 or lvl 30." Effective by its very definition looks to fulfill a purpose and achieve a result—and some of the best Art is that which has no utilitarian value.

Whenever I think about difference between lvl 1 and 30—and I do, a lot...cause it is absolutely ridiculous to have that range intermingling in a D&D environment—I focus on the Why and the How of D&D Modules, and how those Storylines were developed specifically with a Level Range and a Number of PCs. So, essentially, there are Limits to how Role-play is enacted, especially in a D&D environment. Levels, Skills, Abilities are those Limits. Role-play is supposed to be a reflection of those Limits—some may call them achievements —and if the Environment (the Module aspect) is equal and matching the Level spread, then the chance for impact is always certain.

And luckily, on BGTSCC Server, there are Areas that are suited to all the varying level ranges, and if Toons stay to those Areas, they will always make an impact. And sometimes we are lucky to be in Events where DMs are specific about what Levels are best suited/needed. That makes for some great RP moments!

A lot of DC based issues can be dealt with simply by adhering to the simple concept of difficulty via increasing DC. However... I imagine for DMs, the largest problem is that a DC roll is actually time consuming and slows the situation down since often, players call for DC rolls in situations without really making what they want clear.

Sometimes, they just want a single line of dialogue so they can push things forward. Sometimes they just want to use a skill. Skill, therefore, becomes a roleplay crutch. I have called, on occasion, for DMs to give my character direction in areas where I don't really know what the best response would be. Whether this is a good or a bad thing, I am not sure.

However, for example, take a Spot roll which is one of the most common ones. A spot roll simply creates a ton of spam and requires tailored responses for each of the range of spots that a character has. It is a draining experience for a DM under this situation. How do you differentiate from Search? When do you use Listen instead?

I have an idea on how to deal with this, incidentally.

I wonder, do we always have to roll a D20?

I've noticed that many times it just doesn't give a sense of justice to characters, particularly not when it comes to abilities. If I just use myself as an example, I was once in a "drinking game" where we rolled our CON modifiers constistently. I rolled a bad roll, and became too groggy to continue. I had a CON modifier of 7. The eventual winner had a CON modifier of 2.

If we had rolled say a D6, it would more accurately present the differences between us. It would also make the fighter who got 12 charisma "just because of RP" compared to the one who got 8 matter a bit more in situations where such a roll is called for.

Karond wrote:I wonder, do we always have to roll a D20?

In general, no. Usually a well rounded bag of dice has a d4 through a d32.

But in particular, with DCs...my observation is a d20 can allow for a greater chance that a low level, low skilled PC has a greater chance at success at accomplishments that are placed in the Difficulty Challenge realm of Role-play.

As example, if you look at the DM DC Chart in the OP, see how there is a DC 20 to "find out what sorts of crimes the baron's daughter has gotten away with...." that is modified by CHA. A low level bard may have anywhere from a +3 to a +5 ability modifier, so avg. to 4 + d20 to reach a DC 20...the Bard has a slim chance...and that knowledge gained, could be EVERYTHING to reaching a decision in one path of RP. The Game would be NO FUN if chance wasn't always an option, to succeed, as a Player, with your Toon's actions IC.

If it as a d6, then said bard would be hopelessly trying to gain information that could only be supplied by a DM, for example.

One caveat though: on BGTSCC with lvl 30 and serious gear buffs, it is NOT HARD to reach beyond godlike Skillz points...and I am a firm believer in DMs making it relative to the Campaign/Event, the DCs, i.e., Epic Campaigns for Epic Toons, and Low Level Campaigns for Lowbies.

It's either the above, or...Gygax owned stock in a dice manufacturing company, and the d20 is significantly more plastic that a d6, thus increasing his stock value via sales revenue, by molding the D&D game to fit his retirement investment plans.

I am of the opinion that all ability rolls should be d10s.

Unfortunately the level to which skills can be buffed on this server is ridiculous (+80 or more). If you wanted to reproduce the ability roll effect, a 2d20 would provide some element of parity.

We should probably normalize our expectation of skill rolls somewhat and I would suggest this to most DMs from a numerical perspective. I will produce evidence to support this soon.

How the hell does anyone get 80+? Highest I was ever able to get on the build module was 31-32 at lv 20, and 49-50 at lv 30.

Spells and gear.

I can, when I put in the effort, at 30, get Hoihe's H/MS up to 80 using stealth gear and spells!

Gear cant get that high. You can only get from gear a +4 bonus at most. Ive tried putting on two pieces of gear which give + 2 bonus and I did not get a +4 bonus, it remained +2. I might be able to reach 60 at most which is still not bad but 80... i don't think i will ever get that high lol.

Skill gear stacks to +50.

To clarify, are we speaking Ability Scores or Skill modifiers?

Ability scores can get to 44 only for druids. They have a spell that gives a ton of wisdom (Owl's insight).

Skill mods? Some players can get 100+ (Bards, see: Julindra)

That must be it then. I assumed that since ability bonuses can only go up by 4 that all other bonuses were the same. Ill have to try stacking again. Thanks for letting me know.

V'rass wrote:That must be it then. I assumed that since ability bonuses can only go up by 4 that all other bonuses were the same. Ill have to try stacking again. Thanks for letting me know.

Most things:

It stacks, as long as multiple sources.

Take AB for example.

If:

Enchantment bonus/weapon bonus + Gr. Heroism + Divine might charisma bonus, then all 3 are added together until you get +20.

This is a major problem with Tenser's transformation as it barely increases the AB after all the other wards a gish has, because it is limited by the +20. (Divine Power is different, it changes your BAB).

Skill boni always stack, up to +50.

*bump...just in case the Tips and Tricks section gets a cleaning*