Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

RP wise I have always though the below builds are interesting. But mechanically I am have no idea how they would be best represented. Any suggestions?

Vampire Hunter:

Would use a crossbow?

Witch Hunter:

Would be able to counter magic?

Don't knock it till you try it:

http://nwn2db.com/build/?235558

Mechanically? Cleric 30 probably... However, if you want something more interesting you could try:

Cl 21 / Ra3 / Heirophant 6 (in new release). You could have improved FE (Undead), improved turning with heirophant, PSC will give you CL30 and Spell Power I / II will give you CL 32 (if you want, or there are other goodies you could go with).

Cleric 20 / Heirophant 10 w/ max wisdom and charisma as the secondary high stat looks to be pretty nice for caster cleric that can also turn undead decently. I tested a similar build, but with max CHA and WIS 18 (+2 wis item, 22 after owls) and it was really strong in JEGS. That build was based around the epic feat to turn outsiders, but also took 3 spell powers and the improved divine spell power in order to use TU to improve spell levels when needed. It was fun because he could turn about any Undead or Outsider, but could also reach pretty decent DC's when using the improved divine spell power.

Just a few ideas.

Mac wrote:RP wise I have always though the below builds are interesting. But mechanically I am have no idea how they would be best represented. Any suggestions?

Vampire Hunter:

Would use a crossbow?

Witch Hunter:

Would be able to counter magic?

So...my main character follows this concept, and there are 3 more players currently rolling their own hunters using the witch hunter, vampire slayer, demon hunter tropes that are so common in fantasy. We all use crossbows as a main or secondary weapon, with something else. Currently, we're 1 aasimar cleric (me, zen archery and evil domain turning), a human melee ranger (has manyshot for the crossbow), a human melee bard (crossbow is still decent) and a human crossbow bard. We all follow Auril, 1 male, 3 females, and we're all around level 10 right now having started at level 1 some weeks ago.

This is more or less our melee ranger: http://nwn2db.com/build/?231612

We've already done several hunts together through various areas, and just the other day for the first time all four of us happened to get together at the same time which was great. The roleplay is excellent. We're currently trying to setup contacts, like a specialized "spy" network, or finding recurring allies and foes. What I love about the roleplay is that it naturally lends purpose to everyday gameplay. Hunting monsters is your purpose, and it also just happens to be what most players are doing anyway so its easy to get into character


As for your questions:

I think the ranger build above has promise since it's so specialized vs outsiders and undead. It follows the theme well, and with a light armor (like, mithral chainmail) you can use manyshot well too. Crossbow bards are powerful of course, as are varieties of clerics. I kinda like ranger varieties for the favored enemy deal, even if its just a dip for more normal fighter or stealth builds. Like, this is a supercharged non-casting melee build, but it can still work as a witch hunter depending on its favored focus: http://nwn2db.com/build/?185811

If you want to be able to dispel however, which is a fantastic inquisitor kind of way to shut down necromancers, liches, warlocks and the like, you really need to be a wizard or a sorcerer.

Mordekainen is the default mainstay of good counterspellers, but nearly all spells that you want to counterspell are arcane. Sorcerers are the best at this since you can become a counterspeller on the fly. If you take the popular spells, you'll also automatically dispel them without wasting mordekainen slots. Like, get a quickened forceful bigby cast at you? You lose a level 6 slot if you've the forceful bigby spell. Plus, improved counterspelling and epic counterspelling can really make you an anti-magic character to be reckoned with.

Counterspelling sorcerers lend themselves best to being blasters. After all, you might be spending most of your counterspelling feats in the epic levels, since there are other important feats to pick up for class prerequisites and so on. I think a high CL build would be best, since it also lends strength to mordekainen's dispelling power.

Archmage is a natural fit, or even bloodmage (hi Sam from supernatural), besides the classic arcane scholar. You don't necessarily need to invest a lot into counterspelling either. The free feat is doable with a good spell selection, and improved counterspelling helps step up the game. After all, most of the time you only face one enemy spellcaster at a time anyway. This allows you to get a secondary focus...like dispelling power with high CL, or maybe even a DC focus if you stick to the free feat or improved counterspelling. A DC focus has some merit with stuff like undeath to death. Honestly though, I would go high CL blaster. Those dismissals are quite powerful, and blasting is the better choice vs few strong enemies, while DC is better vs many weaker enemies.

well a vampire hunter Van Helsing Class you need a crossbow even Beowolf use a Crossbow to, but then thing is we know a vampire die with a arrow or a bolt in it's chest so is there any class that use a crossbow as a main weapon

Karond wrote: So...my main character follows this concept, and there are 3 more players currently rolling their own hunters using the witch hunter, vampire slayer, demon hunter tropes that are so common in fantasy. We all use crossbows as a main or secondary weapon, with something else. Currently, we're 1 aasimar cleric (me, zen archery and evil domain turning), a human melee ranger (has manyshot for the crossbow), a human melee bard (crossbow is still decent) and a human crossbow bard. We all follow Auril, 1 male, 3 females, and we're all around level 10 right now having started at level 1 some weeks ago.

This is more or less our melee ranger: http://nwn2db.com/build/?231612

We've already done several hunts together through various areas, and just the other day for the first time all four of us happened to get together at the same time which was great. The roleplay is excellent. We're currently trying to setup contacts, like a specialized "spy" network, or finding recurring allies and foes. What I love about the roleplay is that it naturally lends purpose to everyday gameplay. Hunting monsters is your purpose, and it also just happens to be what most players are doing anyway so its easy to get into character

This sounds extremely fun

-

Atlas wrote: One who has deluded himself into believing he hasn't crossed that line into causing evil and suffering.

And after tallying it all up can still justify his actions to himself.

Even if his methods include putting a whole village to the flame just to make sure there are no Vampires or monsters hiding in the community.

This is a key aspect of the roleplay. While good and evil is absolute in D&D, one can argue on what the true nature of good really is. In my mind, good is always about sacrifice towards others. You endanger yourself for others. It stands in direct opposition to selfishness, which goes over to evil when that selfishness comes at other's expense. It's primarily evil though because of the unfair exchange. For example, there is one apple, two persons. If I take that apple and eat it, I'm not necessarily evil but just selfish. Evil is disproportionate, like me taking some pleasure out of seeing lighting you on fire, and not considering the toasted individual's feelings. If I can gain any benefit, and not caring how it affects someone else, then I'm evil. It's how evil rationalizes itself. My pleasure at seeing you burn trumps your feelings of agony. But my feelings of being less hungry is about equal to yours still being hungry from not getting that apple, it's fairly even and not evil of me to take that apple.

Many other things associated with good is difficult to logically call absolute. Like, charity or kindness, as they can be seen in selfish ways. Sacrifice stands alone.

This opens up the opportunity for corrupted sacrifice, and that's really interesting and fits this kind of witch hunter trope very well. Good is dangerous because it's self-righteous in this line of thinking, in essence it has selfish tendencies. While sacrifice at all costs, such as torching a village just to kill a potential vampire within, slides you into evil it's a necessary step for the greater good. It's the ultimate sacrifice, offering your own soul up for the cause. A paladin would never do that. In the D&D setting, where everyone know they end up in a paradise after death if they just follow some deity, this is a very serious thing to do. To be willing to sacrifice your own soul for the good of others to this extreme, puts the individual above paladins that are held back by self-interest. Sure, it's evil to a certain degree, but to these individuals it's the greater good. It's doing whatever it takes, no matter the cost to themselves. It's its own form of heroics.

That's the essence I feel to this kind of roleplay, and why all four of us are evil.

Atlas wrote:Except the part where your characters follow Auril.

Well, I think it's doable. If one look at the above reasoning, it's easy to see why Helm, Tyr, Lathander and Illmater are poor choices. Even Torm, which has a decent dogma and outlook, is a bit odd (although doable), in that we really can't get any sort of authority. It has to be vigillantes, dedicated individuals, rather than a church hierarchy.

I think it's important to note that a deity doesn't utterly define who you are, as very few classes besides paladins try to become copies of their deities. Not even clerics. Deities can be followed for a multitude of reasons, like tradition, upbringing, fear and so on, and people are generally polytheistic. This is especially so since before the time of troubles deities are aloof, and people don't really know the true nature of the gods (arguably, mortals can never know the true nature of the gods). I can read in lore that some Auril heroes have been summoning undead or consorting with ice devils, but as our most devout hunter said, she doesn't know that and it doesn't naturally follow either (the case of one bad apple among many).Myself, I follow Auril since my character is from Lluskan, where it's one of the main state religions.

Either way, it has some potential. It's a nature deity, naturally lending thoughts towards the natural order of things, of what's natural and what isn't. It's a deity for one of the seasons, and as the priestesses in the Temple of Auril south of Nashkel explains, winter isn't evil. It has some beautiful notions, it's pure, covers all, fresh, the death that comes before rebirth. A necessary cycle of life, which is the most mysterious one, as things happen beneath it's surface layer that isn't showing.

Even so, I think the trope is more about having faith in an ideal, a purpose, than a deity. Witch hunter lore has a form of deity, but that is the only choice of a deity to them, and vampire slayers, exorcists, inquisitors or Van Helsing types etc. has the same pattern; belief in god. None is really put into such a polytheistic society as forgotten realms, and demon hunters or other tropes on this line tend to be all about the ideal, revenge, hatred etc., rather than a deity.

In truth, what it mostly provides is just another shared avenue in roleplaying. It's a minor one, religion, but it helps diversify the roleplay a bit.

-

Atlas wrote:The way I would describe what you have said is fighting fire with fire, as opposed to the adage of overcome evil not with evil but with good.

The reason why fighting fire with fire is not regarded as a virtue is because it is laden with self interest and is short sighted and unbalanced in the scope of a persons environment.

The greater good becomes the eventual evil.

It's an important part to be sure. While I can only speak for myself, I don't think anyone of us have gone into the whole "fight fire with fire" trope quite yet, but it lies there waiting in the future as a possibility. A friend of mine pointed me towards a Eisenhorn of the W40k universe, and having looked into that lore, it's a bit like fighting fire with fire. You know, consorting with demoinic "allies", demon-infused weaponry etc. The forgotten realm novels I've read, typically on drow, tend to include these things as well and it's a distinct possibility for a witch hunter character.

But I think neither of us will go off the far deep end. Like, summoning undead or outsiders will never be on the table. All of us have really good lore scores, mostly focused on this kind of thing, so some of us would have some understanding of what summoning undead actually means for the cosmic balance of things.

It's essentially this trope.

Atlas wrote: To me the kinds of societies that would promote Auril are those that are afflicted with a deep seated tradition of promoting evil and suffering. Those who hold to such beliefs in such an ingrained fashion because of generations of indoctrination into evil and malign worship and practices.

I don't think that's true. The worship of the deity is almost exclusively located to cold climates. People aren't evil just because they live in these regions. Lluskans for example have a copy-pasted ideal version of a viking society, emphasizing honour, lawfulness and martial prowess. Even if you read the description of worshippers, and they're always a varied bunch in every religion, carrying supplies or killing something to feed others is hardly promoting evil.

I mostly use Auril for the symbolism, like here. True, other gods work as well. In general, a lot of them can work if religion is downplayed like it is for most of us. Not so sure that the classic paladin deities are it though. If one is looking for better alternatives, I think Hoar is a good one. Still, religion is not a major thing to these kinds of characters I feel, so the choice isn't that important. If you're tainting your own soul for the "greater good", the afterlife is obviously not that valued.

Auril also works well, because...wait for it...it grants clerics Air and Water domains!!!

For me, more importantly, it gave the evil domain

would be interesting to see what happens if/when your group came upon someone XP grinding and using Warlock invocations...

How About a Ranger of Jergal who hunts down and tracks all Undead and those that cheat death. It's possible now with the new changes.

Karond wrote:For me, more importantly, it gave the evil domain

Auril is the best domain, by far. On a cleric30 with EDM, having the Evil domain means you can turn the balor or any other outsider. Something that normally you have to get CHA25 and spend an epic feat.