RWoT temporary fix

[TheLier]

So may or may not be aware that the update (the big one not the fixes), resulted in some maybe unintentional changes for the Red Wizards.

The issue is the following: Until the update you could use the spells from the second school of opposition if you took them before your first RW level (6). This was a feature not a bug if I'm right.

Strangely after the first RW level you get the "choose prohibited school" feat again, but you still can only choose the first one (to be exact: the game says that as an RW you need to but you can only choose one).

So I would like to ask:

Is it possible to get some sort of temporary fix for the issue? (I do not know if some of this were intended or not. If not could we ask for some DM help in the meantime? For example some manual changes with the prohibited schools)

And, what is the offical standpoint regarding this question?

[Nomster]

IIRC there is lore on Red Wizard knowing spells from the second opposition school. It reflects Red Wizards becoming Red Wizards later than others or something like that. I cannot remember which sourcebook it is and what exactly it said but you could maybe help dig it up, TheLier? It is useful to have lore sources when asking for a standpoint

[Tsidkenu]

This point is currently under discussion by QC regarding potential fixes. It is a tricky one, though, given how the new prohibited spell school feature functions (it prevents the act of spellcasting from the chosen prohibited school rather than preventing the scribing of scrolls)

Since Red wizards on our server must take the class no later than level 6, it may be possible to implement some kind of class/level check for them and permit them to cast spells of their second prohibited school up to the 3rd Circle. Whether that can be implemented without destroying the script in its current form I will have to defer to Rasael

[TheLier]

This point is currently under discussion by QC regarding potential fixes. It is a tricky one, though, given how the new prohibited spell school feature functions (it prevents the act of spellcasting from the chosen prohibited school rather than preventing the scribing of scrolls)

Since Red wizards on our server must take the class no later than level 6, it may be possible to implement some kind of class/level check for them and permit them to cast spells of their second prohibited school up to the 3rd Circle. Whether that can be implemented without destroying the script in its current form I will have to defer to Rasael

Well, thank you for letting us know!

I hope we don't have to hug FAI and BG thightly for long . (With a group it is ok, although personally I do miss mirror image )

To add something to the thread:

If the problem is looking like something long term, what about being able to choose the second school too?

[Tsidkenu]

If the problem is looking like something long term, what about being able to choose the second school too?

This is being undertaken in the same discussion! It is up to Rasael to decide whether it can be implemented.

IIRC there is lore on Red Wizard knowing spells from the second opposition school. It reflects Red Wizards becoming Red Wizards later than others or something like that. I cannot remember which sourcebook it is and what exactly it said but you could maybe help dig it up, TheLier? It is useful to have lore sources when asking for a standpoint

Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, pp.50-51.

[thids]

Red Wizards can delay their RWOT levels as much as possible (within 3b20 rule) if they include a reason for it in their application (a RP reason) and if the DM team approves it. Though someone who puts on the red mantle so late usually suffers RP consequences, including a lesser station at the enclave. At least this is how it used to be 1-2 years ago.

[JCVD1]

Red Wizards can delay their RWOT levels as much as possible (within 3b20 rule) if they include a reason for it in their application (a RP reason) and if the DM team approves it. Though someone who puts on the red mantle so late usually suffers RP consequences, including a lesser station at the enclave. At least this is how it used to be 1-2 years ago.

Exactly. Still is the case.

I am not logging in as long as the "fix" isn't in.

There is nothing to discuss about, really.
The lore is clear.
The Mechanics were already there.
The update gave us many new spells, but it broke the class and hinders the remaining of my motivation to log in.

It makes the lower level RWs struggling to grind and gain any Xp, it makes higher lvl RWs become a second class Spell caster.
We cannot initiate any sort of PvP, or defend ourselves effectively.

I cannot stress enough the team how important that is for a faction that struggled for years to keep its members motivated to log in.

[Tsidkenu]

It makes the lower level RWs struggling to grind and gain any Xp, it makes higher lvl RWs become a second class Spell caster.
We cannot initiate any sort of PvP, or defend ourselves effectively.

I cannot stress enough the team how important that is for a faction that struggled for years to keep its members motivated to log in.

Being unable to cast spells of the school of illusion (which I am assuming is the case here) gives you mechanical disadvantage but not an RP disadvantage. Why does your ability to RP have to hinge on your mechanical power? I feel your argument implies a needed ability to solo-grind areas with little to no risk to self, or wipe the floor in PVP with the same, and without these powers your RP is null and void.

I levelled Aeili to 30 as an 8 CON diviner without being able to cast a single illusion spell until the Prohibited Spell School changes came in. It never once impacted on my RP. In fact, it gave me more impetus to RP because of how desperately weak she was and how she could only survive in a party. And when you have a buff/control wizard/cleric boosting fighters and curing the injured, she got to go many interesting places. I even recently had PVP with another evil character knowing full well OOC that Aeili's lack of illusion protections would result with her losing, which was exactly what happened. What's wrong with that? Why do we always have to RP or PVP to win?

Mechanically, yes she's a weak build (less so now she has Necromancy as her original intended prohibited school). Mechanically losing the illusion school is much the same for you, undoubtedly. That should not inhibit your ability to RP and enjoy the server for I strongly believe that that rests entirely on the shoulders of the player, and not the mechanics.

That said, it is being discussed and a solution is being worked out. There is no reason for your RP to be diminished in the meantime as far as I'm concerned, but I'll leave that up to you. I find it rather disappointing, personally, because our server needs antagonistic guilds like the Reds being active, bugs or not. Just play wise evil for the meantime

[thids]

Because certain character concepts require a certain degree of mechanical power. And I'm not even talking about powerbuilding (because let's face it "RWoT powerbuild" without the permission to take the first RW level later is an oxymoron), I'm talking about some bare necessities needed to back up your character concept. Playing a non-confrontational sun elf priestess of Mystra, spending ~80%(?) of your playtime in a friendly environment surrounded by guards, you can allow yourself the luxury of building purely for RP. A typical Red Wizard as a character concept with the attached mechanical limitations that go along with that concept, don't have the same luxury, unless they want to limit their character to the city of Baldur's Gate.

It is not about RPing to win, it's about backing up your RP without having to tug your tail between your legs every single time you enter a confrontational situation and someone turns you hostile then gives you an RP out. Tugging your tail between your legs in such a situation purely because you OOCly know your weakness is borderline metagaming anyway. I'm not saying "losing" constantly necessarily means your character is fit for retirement. My character has had his ass handed to him in every single hostile encounter with the drow he has had (I think you were present at one of those with your drow), and even in the one case where he ended up on top, it was a grueling and humbling experience. This resulted in the situation where the only two things that put proper fear into his bones are the drow and Bane himself. I took those "losses" as character development, and had the luxury of ridiculously high bluff which helped my character limit the damage to his reputation among his peers by claiming stuff like "I assaulted the daughter of a matron mother in the middle of their house and lived to tell the tale". Yes, majority of those encounters were not mechanical pvp and were decided by me rolling horribly (I would make a horrid gambler), but that is beside the point. If he had his ass handed to him by a large majority of characters he is confronted with... well, at that point it's not character development anymore, it's time for the retirement home. The concept is dead, and the character is not fun to play anymore. I could probably avoid pvp for the entire lifespan of the character, everyone could (even more so on a Red Wizard), but why should people put themselves through the hell of RPing a confrontational character with the "oh god, I hope they don't pvp me" thought lingering in the back of their head during conflicts? Might as well simply save yourself the trouble and not play confrontational characters.


I know it's easy to ignore the mechanical side of things on BG when it comes to conflicts in RP, with the labyrinth of pvp rules and RP outs, but mechanical power of characters is not irrelevant. It's not the most important thing in RP, nor should it be, but claiming it is irrelevant (as plenty of people on BG do) is going to the extreme in the opposite direction.

[JCVD1]

Oh no no.

It's not remotely the same.
In my case, it's conjuration AND illusion now.
Meaning no mage armors or teleportations. No orbs etc.

Losing necromancy (by choice) is the most viable school to loose. No wails of the Banshee? Puh-lease!


Saying that I want to be able to solo grind is totally correct and accurate. When you play a Red Wizard, you basically have to hope to get along with people who aren't super knowledgeable about Thay and do not care. (It's not that simple, It's my 3rd RW character. I know) That, or get people to play Thayans that do not care if they get attacked/ambushed at every turn and "not win at PvP" constantly.

Anyone can put their heads in the sand, saying the mechanical part, the XP, the gear does not influence RP or FUN or isn't important.

[Invoker]

Red Wizards (and I had a lvl 30 one called Ishamael Nymar. Not RCRED: leveled from scratch) is definitely an RP choice. If you know about mechanics, and want to build for power, you most certainly don't pick the RW route.

It was bad enough to lose Premonition, Shades, Shadow Shield, Shadow Simulacrum & Co.

Adding the loss of Invisibility, Mirror Images (most of all) and Displacement to the list makes a regular mage nearly unplayable.

It's not a matter of "if" to fix it. It's a giant screw-up, that NEEDS a fix. If there are none, it should be reverted to the former status.

It's not a matter of PvP, it's global. Typical wizards have an AC of 34-44, and anything in between that can and will get destroyed by endgame content without PM 10, ICE and other very specific build choices. Even in groups.

Comparing this character with Aeili makes little sense: I also had a cleric of Myrkul with CON 8, and have currently a cleric of Shevarash with CON 10. And it's a joke to level, in both cases. It's simply a different story, especially in group play.

[TheLier]

Any updates?

[mrm3ntalist]

Losing the spells from two schools in pnp, is not the same with losing the spells from two schools in nwn2. The pool of available spells in pnp is MASSIVE. On nwn2 it is not, even with the additional spells that were implemented n BG.

Mechanically, losing the spells from two schools is like cutting both hands from a fighter.

Any updates?

No updates yet...

[TheLier]

Losing the spells from two schools in pnp, is not the same with losing the spells from two schools in nwn2. The pool of available spells in pnp is MASSIVE. On nwn2 it is not, even with the additional spells that were implemented n BG.

Mechanically, losing the spells from two schools is like cutting both hands from a fighter.

Any updates?

No updates yet...

I agree, but anything would be better then the mess it is after the update.

[TheLier]

Shameless Bump, hoping for something.