A Black Flame Zealot with Caster Level of 30

[Dawrf]

This has not been optimized as of yet: http://nwn2db.com/build/?239165

The baseline is: Rogue 3/Cleric 12/Hierophant 6/Black Flame Zealot 9 - with caster level of 30. Do you have any suggestions or comments?

[chad878262]

What's the point of feint with Zen archery? Still suffers for talking bfz instead of improving a niche at expense of others...just about any other divine caster build with cl 30 is better off. Without hips you have no way to reliably land sa...yes you have feint, but melee archery with no hips...ouch.

Hopefully bfz gets a big bump in cl progression as more rogue levels would go a long way...Or better, assassin

[Dawrf]

On landing sneak attacks: I have access to Summoning spells and with that high Wisdom modifier I can buff up my own Summon. Hence while the Summon draws in the attention, I can move freely and attack the enemy's back. With a party, I do not need to rely on a summon.

The point of Zen Archery with Feint: Sometimes I want to melee, sometimes I want to play an archer (or slinger). Thus, feint is there for the occasions I want to melee. (It works when it works, and as caster I can afford to get the 'Bluff gear' - and possibly help out any sneaker that teams up with me.)

As for Black Flame Zealot itself: It is flawed and most would have easier time with something like Rogue 4/Cleric 26 or Cleric 26/Divine Seeker 4. But... It is our only 'Rogue/Cleric' PRC. Therefore: I will use it.


Anyhow, feel free to suggest the most powerful variation you can make.

[chad878262]

With the current way it works I really don't think there is a way to build a 'good' BFZ. Yours is certainly fine, so long as you have divine power when you want to melee since STR / DEX is fairly low. I would honestly focus that build entirely on being a caster cleric. Unfortunately that means evocation which is not very subtle or roguish, but not much choice. Other option is instead to disregard CL somewhat and play it more like a Rogue who has some cleric spells. Perhaps either C13/BFZ9/A8 (CL 22 w/ PSC) or C15/BFZ9/R3/SD3 (CL 24 w/ PSC)...

Again, unfortunately there really is no 'good' way to build a cleric rogue. Yours is good for a caster who follows Mask from an RP perspective, but that being the case I would treat as such and just focus on being a caster... For me that would mean dropping BFZ and just rolling with Cleric 26/SD 4 w/ PSC for CL 30 (or maybe throw in Hierophant 4 for CL 32)...

Just my thoughts... Instead of Hips / SA you have Hips / blast 'em spells.

[Deathgrowl]

Black Flame Zealot of Mask...? That's like Morninglord of ... Silvanus.

[chad878262]

Black Flame Zealot of Mask...? That's like Morninglord of ... Silvanus.

this is what happens when you don't have a more generalized Cleric/Rogue PRC...

[Thorsson]

On landing sneak attacks: I have access to Summoning spells and with that high Wisdom modifier I can buff up my own Summon. Hence while the Summon draws in the attention, I can move freely and attack the enemy's back.

This is good for one attack per opponent at the expense of eating through your spells. Doesn't convince me, and that's before you consider all the sneak immunes.

[Dawrf]

Black Flame Zealot of Mask...? That's like Morninglord of ... Silvanus.

this is what happens when you don't have a more generalized Cleric/Rogue PRC...

It was a staff decision to make 'BFZ' our generic Cleric/Rogue PRC. Possibly because there was no other Cleric/Rogue PRC to choose from. In fact the PRC description has been almost stripped away from anything that would hint towards Kossuth.

I mean, if you were to remove this line:

a secret society of holy slayers devoted to the worship of a dark deity of fire and destruction.

You would get this:

The Order of the Black Flame is the hidden blade of their faith, trained in unholy rites, the black flame zealots use stealth, divine magic, and the zeal of fanaticism to destroy those who have given offense to their god. Even great rulers are not above the deity's wrath, since the Order is a sanctioned and respected means for the wealthy and powerful to pursue vendettas.

Clerics and particularly devout rogues or fighters most often become black flame zealots. A small number of the order's members are high-ranking clerics who keep an eye open for fellow devotees who seem like suitable candidates.

[Dawrf]

On landing sneak attacks: I have access to Summoning spells and with that high Wisdom modifier I can buff up my own Summon. Hence while the Summon draws in the attention, I can move freely and attack the enemy's back.

This is good for one attack per opponent at the expense of eating through your spells. Doesn't convince me, and that's before you consider all the sneak immunes.

Even before the duration of Summining spells were increased, a buffed up extended Summon Monster was able to grind for my Wizard. What makes you think it would not be able to do it now when the Summon Monster spell duration has increased and my spell book provides actual heals?

Also, for as long as you flank something, you get that AB bonus of 2 and can land your sneak attacks. (Improved Uncanny Dodge is a counter though.)

As for monsters that are immune to critical hits, even clerics with negative charisma modifier can successfully turn undead, and as for the rest, well, you are a cleric, buff up a bit and you will chip down their HP.

[Dawrf]

Perhaps either C13/BFZ9/A8 (CL 22 w/ PSC) or C15/BFZ9/R3/SD3 (CL 24 w/ PSC)...

You got me thinking about dropping the number of Cleric levels themselves. I mean, you could go for something like:

Rogue 13/Cleric 5/Black Flame Zealot 9/Shadowdancer 3
(10d6 Sneak Attack, Perfect Two Weapon Fighting, and 30 BAB with Divine Power)
(Fifth level spells and caster level of 14 with PSC)

Or

Rogue 10/Cleric 3/Black Flame Zealot 9/Assassin 8
(12d6 Sneak Attack, Perfect Two Weapon Fighting, and 30 BAB with Divine Power)
(Fourth level spells and caster level of 12 with PSC)

After all, a 'rogue heavy build' has much more to gain from the BFZ's Fear immunity.

Or alternatively, keep the level layout as it is and go for a Strength based melee build.

[chad878262]

Interesting concept... I would definitely go with the SD idea over Assassin just for 5th level spells and extended divine power (after all, using stealth slows you down). In addition, you could even consider reducing Cleric/BFZ levels a bit more so you can hit Rogue 16 to gain Epic Dodge alongside PTWF (of course this also takes away level 5 spells, so it's a trade off)... In any case, with BFZ I think aiming for lower caster level, more roguish is probably as good as it gets, since you are never going to be a 'true caster' might as well just treat it like a rogue with a bit of divine help.