Petition: Remove/Lower Damage Reduction and why Dexers suck

[Vhaeraun Baen're]

Petition to Remove/Lower Damage Reduction on mobs
(aka why dual wielding dex fighters without sneak attack suck)


I'd like to see Damage Reduction either be lowered or completely removed from mobs on BGTSCC.


As it is now, dex fighters do very little damage to almost every epic mob because they all have such high DR. I question the design decision to do this.

Every dex-based build that gets posted always has the same comment: "wheres the damage?"

In NWN1 the main way to get around this issue as a dex fighter were crits. Crits multiplied all damage mods on weapons unlike NWN2.



Several other factors really dissuade players from playing dex-based fighters in NWN2 and particularly BGTSCC:

1. No magic bags to put loot in. In NWN1 you could get away with low strength because of magic bags, but they dont exist here.

2. You can have Evasion in heavy armor. That's not how D&D 3.5 works. Dex fighters in no base AC armor are supposed to have the advantage of having access to Evasion, but that's not a thing here.

3. Low AC as a dexer, especially when dual-wielding. In NWN1 you could stack stat items to make use of the +12 stat cap. Here the highest stat item you'll find is +3. That means you're going to max out around 10 AC in robes, which is on par with the best heavy armor you can get. To me that's unacceptable from a design stand-point. Also, in NWN1 the max level was 40 which meant more base stats. High AC as a dex fighter is a thing of the past.

4. Epic Dodge is hard to obtain. Epic dodge is the most appealing thing to a dex fighter ,hands down, and with a level cap of 30 it makes it a lot harder to obtain compared to NWN1, Especially with the nerf to Whirling Dervish here (why??). Its very hard to have Epic Dodge in a build that also has good damage, unless you're playing a sneak attack build.

5. Obtaining not one but two good weapons. Obviously this is for dual-wielding builds, but quotes like this perplex me: "You are in for some pain. With dual wielders you not only need one epic weapon... but two. See you in a couple of years." Maybe this is more of an issue of the loot on the server and how its ridiculously hard to get good loot unless you're one of the Special Ones. Also consider how easy it is for casters to buff their base weapons to +5, Keen, and a damage mod, while non-casters are left with trying to trade other epic items (not buy, because who wants gold?) for weapons that are much weaker in comparison to buffed weapons.

6. Deadly Defense is 1d4. Why? This feat is already somewhat unappealing at 1d6 and then it gets implemented finally and it only does 1d4?

[metaquad4]

Here are a couple dex-based builds that would do well in this server, that do not rely on sneak attacks.

http://nwn2db.com/build/?226416

http://nwn2db.com/build/?241279

http://nwn2db.com/build/?203760 (Some Sneak Attack, but not really reliant on it for damage)

Monk 16/Assassin 8/Fighter 6 also works well (I cannot find the build in my library atm, continuing the search)

I'd generally go with a dex/int split (you usually only really need 18/19 int. With a +2/+3 item, that'll work nicely to fill in your damage) and include something like...

--Dervish (Gives a nice +5 AB/+5 Damage and 2d6 extra for 30 second burst (3/day). Also adds onto AC.)
--Weapon Master (critability)
--Swash 5 (extra int-to-damage)
--Duelist (extra AC)
--Shadowdancer (use the fact that, as a dex-user, you'll generally have a pretty good sneak score and you qualify for shadowdancer (which requires 19 dex here). HiPs is a wonderful defensive and offensive tool. Assassin is also an option if it fits better into the build.)

As far as gear goes, you can do just fine with +3 stuff. There are a few nice merchants hidden around too (one in the BG Docks Inn has some +4 stuff, one in Roaringshore sells a nice rapier that also confers shield AC (+3 EB/+3 Shield AC)).

+4/+3 with (good) elemental enchantment aren't realistically NEEDED, though they do become a nice little OOC goal to strive for. At least, I haven't seen anyone do poorly due to a lack of them, as of yet. Imo, builds should always be planned to do well in +3 stuff, as that is the most realistic expectation on a short-term basis.

[NeOmega]

Epic weapons for dexers are plentiful and cheap. You can get them for about 10,000 a piece. Also, keen is easy now, and it always kind of was. Wands of keen and weapon of impact are fairly easy to buy at auction as well. But that is irrelevant. Maybe you should play a bit more. There are new items out for keening weapons.

I have lots of robe builds I love with excellent armor. There are four Ability stats that can be used with robes for AC, they are WIS, DEX, INT and CON. And yes, I am still thinking about making the most epic robe wearer ever: an invisible blade monk fist of the forest.


I only want to see DR made irrelevant for invisible blades.


and changing the server for a real niche build (dual wielding dex fighters without sneak attack) is kind of... ...most dex dual wielders do have sneak attack.

[Vhaeraun Baen're]

Here are a couple dex-based builds that would do well in this server, that do not rely on sneak attacks.

http://nwn2db.com/build/?226416

http://nwn2db.com/build/?241279

http://nwn2db.com/build/?203760 (Some Sneak Attack, but not really reliant on it for damage)

Monk 16/Assassin 8/Fighter 6 also works well (I cannot find the build in my library atm, continuing the search)

I'd generally go with a dex/int split (you usually only really need 18/19 int. With a +2/+3 item, that'll work nicely to fill in your damage) and include something like...

--Dervish (Gives a nice +5 AB/+5 Damage and 2d6 extra for a 1 minute burst. Also adds onto AC.)
--Weapon Master (critability)
--Swash 5 (extra int-to-damage)
--Duelist (extra AC)
--Shadowdancer (use the fact that, as a dex-user, you'll generally have a pretty good sneak score and you qualify for shadowdancer (which requires 19 dex here). HiPs is a wonderful defensive and offensive tool. Assassin is also an option if it fits better into the build.)

As far as gear goes, you can do just fine with +3 stuff. There are a few nice merchants hidden around too (one in the BG Docks Inn has some +4 stuff, one in Roaringshore sells a nice rapier that also confers shield AC (+3 EB/+3 Shield AC)).

+4/+3 with (good) elemental enchantment aren't realistically NEEDED, though they do become a nice little OOC goal to strive for. At least, I haven't seen anyone do poorly due to a lack of them, as of yet. Imo, builds should always be planned to do well in +3 stuff, as that is the most realistic expectation on a short-term basis.

I disagree with you, and I would say all of those builds are sub-par at best and terrible at worst. Even with insightful strike and combat insight you're still barely doing any damage to epic mobs with DR here if you are dex based. If you are dex based the WM crits arent multiplying much. Duelist cant use two weapons and good luck fitting in Epic Dodge if you're a duelist or dervish.

My latest build is a Swashbuckler Shadowdancer and it just wants to be so much better than it actually is..

[metaquad4]

I'll have to disagree back. After field-testing both of these, they've turned out to be pretty good (in +3 gear). I think you are overestimating the epic mob's DR here.

Hidden: show

Some quick calculations, for fun:
Assume that mobs have 10 DR (most have around 5, a few have 10), all items are +3, weapons roll half their dice for base damage, and that 8/12 attacks hit.

http://nwn2db.com/build/?241279
Assume that 3/8 attacks are critical hits -
+12 Damage (2*INT), +3 Damage (Weapon EB), +6 Damage (Fighter Feats), +3 Damage (Rapier Base)-10 (DR)=14 Damage/hit
The 3 Critical Hits give 126 damage total, the 5 normal hits give 70 damage
Total Damage/Round given our assumptions is 196 damage.

http://nwn2db.com/build/?226416
Assume no attacks are critical hits, Assume 1k Cuts is not enabled -
+10 (2*INT), +3 Damage (Weapon EB), +8 Damage (Fighter Feats), +5 Damage (Dervish Dance), +3 Damage (Rapier Base), -10 (DR)=19 Damage/hit
The 8 normal hits give 152 damage.
Total Damage/Round given our assumptions is 152 damage.

Damage can also be improved with goodies such as wands of flame weapon and wands of keen. Both are not that terrible to maintain and yield good results.

For a duelist, the only thing that doesn't work is precise strike (+1d6 damage) when dual-wielding.

If you are dex-based and stacking damage correctly, WM will most certainly be effective.

Epic Dodge isn't really necessary either. You can fit it in, but you are gimping yourself at that point on this kind of build with it.

Swashbuckler shadowdancer can be good, depending on how it was build (I used to play with a swashbuckler/sd/duelist/wm who was dishing out a healthy 70-100 damage per hit). I have a few guesses as to what the build layout was, I think I made a few of them at one point on my nwn2db library. That particular build was not a TWF build, though.

[NegInfinity]

Which epic mobs have DR? I've been hunting nagas forver in the past, and I don't remember them or wormthrax having dr.

You might want to get several sets of weapons though. cold iron, silver, etc. Undead are very likely to have DR against one type of damage too.

Also, something like dervish/tempest/wm with kukri will be a literal shredder (75+ on critical with full 6 attacks per round while dancing).

[NegInfinity]

Here are a couple dex-based builds that would do well in this server, that do not rely on sneak attacks.

http://nwn2db.com/build/?226416

http://nwn2db.com/build/?241279

http://nwn2db.com/build/?203760 (Some Sneak Attack, but not really reliant on it for damage)

Monk 16/Assassin 8/Fighter 6 also works well (I cannot find the build in my library atm, continuing the search)

I'd generally go with a dex/int split (you usually only really need 18/19 int. With a +2/+3 item, that'll work nicely to fill in your damage) and include something like...

--Dervish (Gives a nice +5 AB/+5 Damage and 2d6 extra for a 1 minute burst. Also adds onto AC.)
--Weapon Master (critability)
--Swash 5 (extra int-to-damage)
--Duelist (extra AC)
--Shadowdancer (use the fact that, as a dex-user, you'll generally have a pretty good sneak score and you qualify for shadowdancer (which requires 19 dex here). HiPs is a wonderful defensive and offensive tool. Assassin is also an option if it fits better into the build.)

As far as gear goes, you can do just fine with +3 stuff. There are a few nice merchants hidden around too (one in the BG Docks Inn has some +4 stuff, one in Roaringshore sells a nice rapier that also confers shield AC (+3 EB/+3 Shield AC)).

+4/+3 with (good) elemental enchantment aren't realistically NEEDED, though they do become a nice little OOC goal to strive for. At least, I haven't seen anyone do poorly due to a lack of them, as of yet. Imo, builds should always be planned to do well in +3 stuff, as that is the most realistic expectation on a short-term basis.

I disagree with you, and I would say all of those builds are sub-par at best and terrible at worst. Even with insightful strike and combat insight you're still barely doing any damage to epic mobs with DR here if you are dex based. If you are dex based the WM crits arent multiplying much. Duelist cant use two weapons and good luck fitting in Epic Dodge if you're a duelist or dervish.

My latest build is a Swashbuckler Shadowdancer and it just wants to be so much better than it actually is..

Duelist can't apply bonuses to two weapons, only to one weapon, and criticals FIRST multiply damage and THEN subtract DR.
So if you crit for 100 damage vs dr 10, you'll deal 90 damage.

Also, IIRC bgtscc introduced deadly defense feat which will be adding bonuses to combat expertise.

Weapon specialization add damage that is multiplied by crit. Classes like WoD/AnnointetKnight add damage that is not crittable, but still helps.

Epic dodge? That's for sneakers, not for two-weapon fighters.

----

If you, by chance, are trying to fight undead and golems as WM, then, excuse me, this is the one enemy you'll always want to avoid when possible, because they are immune to your primary damage source.

[AC81]

Dex'ers go well enough on this server. Even though weapon master helps them out, I'd go with a monk build flurrying kamas and using intelligence as a damage source. Something like a F14/Monk11/Swash5. I've seen this build solo bosses and make the pve here look like a joke. The truth is, most builds work on BG.

[fearknight2003]

Epic weapons for dexers are plentiful and cheap. You can get them for about 10,000 a piece. Also, keen is easy now, and it always kind of was. Wands of keen and weapon of impact are fairly easy to buy at auction as well. But that is irrelevant. Maybe you should play a bit more. There are new items out for keening weapons.

I have lots of robe builds I love with excellent armor. There are four Ability stats that can be used with robes for AC, they are WIS, DEX, INT and CON. And yes, I am still thinking about making the most epic robe wearer ever: an invisible blade monk fist of the forest.


I only want to see DR made irrelevant for invisible blades.


and changing the server for a real niche build (dual wielding dex fighters without sneak attack) is kind of... ...most dex dual wielders do have sneak attack.

Uh... two-weapon rangers?
Stop being racist against rangers. #RangerLivesMatter

[NegInfinity]

Uh... two-weapon rangers?
Stop being racist against rangers. #RangerLivesMatter

-_-
Rangers aren't a race.

#LivesDontMatter
#AllMustPerish
#AllHailAbyss
#FreeTharizdun

[Thorsson]

There's some disingenuous posts here, with 5 levels of Swashbuckler seemingly held up as the answer to all issues. There are several problems with the Str10/Int19 builds:

1. You'll struggle to carry all your gear, let alone loot
2. You don't do damage against crit immunes until you get Combat Insight
3. Combat Insight comes late (for example level 25 in the first of the builds here)

There's also the boring fact that you're constrained into quite a narrow range of options to make it work.

The problem is, if they did good damage as well then they'd probably be too attractive.

[NegInfinity]

There's some disingenuous posts here, with 5 levels of Swashbuckler seemingly held up as the answer to all issues. There are several problems with the Str10/Int19 builds:

1. You'll struggle to carry all your gear, let alone loot
2. You don't do damage against crit immunes until you get Combat Insight
3. Combat Insight comes late (for example level 25 in the first of the builds here)

There's also the boring fact that you're constrained into quite a narrow range of options to make it work.

The problem is, if they did good damage as well then they'd probably be too attractive.

TWF fighter 20 will have trouble, I'll agree with that. And dipping into swash is definitely not the way to go about everything.

Either way, by going DEX route player would need to pick some strategy that works. Str goes to damage and hit chance. Dex goes to hit chance (with finesse) and AC. Meaning that Str build will hit hard but will be easier to hit, while dex build will deal less damage but will be harder to hit.

So, Dex build will need to look for ways to add extra damage. Weapon specialization and weapon mastery feats will definitely help here. Dip into rogue will add sneakattacks at the cost of 1 AB and few missed feats. Extra damage from bardic inspiration will help, elemental damage from corresponding classes, etc. Then there's ranged route.

I don't think that "Change the world for my build" is the right mindset.

[ragnarok1983]

If only there was a way for a dex-based character to expose the weakness of a creature with such stout defenses. You would have to evade long enough to find it, but surely there is a way to use such accuracy and finesse to hit that exact spot where a creature was weakest and essentially apply his dexterity to the enemy in the form of damage.

*thrusts his tongue firmly into his cheek*

[NegInfinity]

If only there was a way for a dex-based character to expose the weakness of a creature with such stout defenses. You would have to evade long enough to find it, but surely there is a way to use such accuracy and finesse to hit that exact spot where a creature was weakest and essentially apply his dexterity to the enemy in the form of damage.

*thrusts his tongue firmly into his cheek*

There is Expose Weakness feat ^_^.
http://nwn2.wikia.com/wiki/Expose_Weakness

[ragnarok1983]

*inserts "THAT'S_THE_JOKE.jpg"*