Adding Warlock Feats Back In

[Nocturnus]

Hey, So I have a level 18 almost 19 leveled warlock (3 hellfire) and I'm curious as to why all the feats from the PRC pack were removed. I'm assuming it was "balance" yet my elderich blasts are garbage and do 20-34 damage each (without hellfire blast, then it's 30-50), it also has made much less fun to play due to the lack of options. So I'm wondering if it's possible to somehow re add at least some of the warlock feats back in? There are far more unbalanced classes and class combos than warlock.

Also Dark transient worked the first time I picked it, the next reset it stopped working, was that one removed as well? Or is it just bugged

[Karond]

Dark transient works.

What feats did the server add, then remove? None. What feats are missing from Kaedrin's pack? Maximize and empower? Invocations like glaive?

Warlocks are fine though as they are in my opinion. They have a tiny struggle until they reach eldritch master, but thanks to grossly overpowered invocations like repelling blast or undead bane blast, warlocks really don't need anything more. It was even ill-advised of us to give them sneak immunity at a ridicilious duration, which was the latest powerspike they got. Recently they got some new invocations too although none of them are that useful.

[Nocturnus]

Dark transient works.

What feats did the server add, then remove? None. What feats are missing from Kaedrin's pack? Maximize and empower? Invocations like glaive?

Warlocks are fine though as they are in my opinion. They have a tiny struggle until they reach eldritch master, but thanks to grossly overpowered invocations like repelling blast or undead bane blast, warlocks really don't need anything more. It was even ill-advised of us to give them sneak immunity at a ridicilious duration, which was the latest powerspike they got. Recently they got some new invocations too although none of them are that useful.

Well it wasn't working for me, besides when I first got it. Well te be fair the attack bonus worked but the duration increase did not.

>repelling blast or undead bane blast

I suppose if you just stand still and spam it sure, it doesn't make up for the fact I'm doing awful damage for my level (an average 30 damage doesn't help much for higher level creatures) I wasnt sure if they were added or not beforehand so I added that.

Fine, when they reach epic levels they do a bit more damage (50% correct?) but even at that rate I'd be doing an average of 45 damage, only two summon spells one of which is trash even with the changes and the other is awkward to use as you have to be in an open area or 0 shadow demons will spawn regards of the number you get.

What I'm getting at is Warlocks have virtually no feats, they end up all the same as you're stuck picking certain invocations or feats or die constantly. Gutteral Invocations would be a good addition, but I know you're keeping that as a druid thing for what ever reason (even though Dragon shape, even magical beast shape is better than words of changing and druid spells will usually do far more damage than an eldrich blast). The empower feats would help, even if you nerfed it.

I hope I'm not coming off as hostile, but after parting with an archer that does 3x more damage in one round than I do while being around the same level made me angry

[Steve]

A lvl 30 Warlock with Eldritch Master will have minimum 21d6 Blast dice. So that's an average of 63 DMG per round. Eldritch Chain spreads this damage around quite significantly. It's also damage of a type with no resistance. And Vitrolic adds some extra on top.

But playing a Warlock for damage output is not all that the Class is about.

Assassin archers abusing many shot is not good to compare against, cause that is just broken. And frenzied crit masters will do 300 damage per round sure...but there are huge weaknesses there.

More fears for a Warlock would be cool, but don't expect Feats that give more power—just look at all the new fears from the Big Update, and you'll see that is not going to happen.

[NegInfinity]

Hey, So I have a level 18 almost 19 leveled warlock (3 hellfire) and I'm curious as to why all the feats from the PRC pack were removed. I'm assuming it was "balance" yet my elderich blasts are garbage and do 20-34 damage each (without hellfire blast, then it's 30-50), it also has made much less fun to play due to the lack of options. So I'm wondering if it's possible to somehow re add at least some of the warlock feats back in? There are far more unbalanced classes and class combos than warlock.

Also Dark transient worked the first time I picked it, the next reset it stopped working, was that one removed as well? Or is it just bugged

BGTSCC doesn't use kaedrin's prc, due to some past conflict with kaedrin. So nothing was removed.

A fully leveled warlock can deal insane damage if you build it right. And you already should have infinitely recastable spells.

Also, most kaedrin warlock feats were homebrewed, meaning they were invented for no reason whatsoever.

Fine, when they reach epic levels they do a bit more damage (50% correct?) but even at that rate I'd be doing an average of 45

Wrong.

You can reach 21d6 dice. You can apply it as AOE, chain, and if you use ranged touch, it can critically hit.

that's 110 damage on average with eldritch master.

I hope I'm not coming off as hostile, but after parting with an archer that does 3x more damage in one round than I do while being around the same level made me angry

You should try playing different class. Archer is significantly weaker than warlock, because archer can't do aoe damage, etc. Archer also will be destroyed if surrounded or by damage-resistance enemies. Or by sneak-attack-resistant enemies (because it is very likely that your archer was assassin). Ranged characters have significantly harder time in epic levels.

Honestly, it really sounds like you've picked wrong class to play...

Alternativley go to character building forum and ask for advice. Warlocks are fine. They're one of the most powerful classes on the server.

[Nocturnus]

I see what you mean, but in comparison to the other epic characters I've seen 64 damage is pretty low. Most of the warlock invocations are pretty much useless which has helped destroy any variation between warlocks. Pre epic warlocks will always use vitriolic blast, most of the ones I've seen take word of changing even if they're not infernal pact/heritage, leaps and bounds/dark ones luck/enthropic shield for 1st circle invocations. Damage is all that matters in the underdark as pretty much all high level creatures I've fought have either immunity to mind effecting spells or high saves. The non attack invocations are mostly weak (slow for one round? Blind for one round?) That also not to mention the crazy spell resistance everything has. Hellfire shield is a waste of constitution at my level as it gets blocked.

But what I'm getting at is, Warlocks are not even close to a "powerful class" as was said in the thread about guttural invocations. Other spell casters are far more powerful, the only thing warlock got going for them is unlimited invocations (and still end up having to rest as much as any mage does) and blasts that pierce spell resistance. Also warlocks have little variety even with the new invocations, perhaps fey/divine/etc warlocks wouldn't mostly be Hellfire warlocks if there were more options for you too keep up with the enemy scaling.

[Nocturnus]

[quote="NegInfinity"]]

I see what you mean about being fully leveled, but you don't start at level 30. My character is at level 18 and does around 30 per hit unless I use Hellfire blast but buying all those potions gets expensive, I can't keep up with enemies around my level and I can only imagine how screwed I am if I enter PvP .

Does it really matter if it's homebrewed? The majority of people playing pnp homebrew classes,spells etc. If it still fits the setting and of course is balanced I don't see why it shouldn't be added. (warlocks are bare bones in 3.5 anyways).

I have played other classes, one is a Favoured soul/ divine champion (so no divine might) and he still is far more durable and stronger plus I didn't even power build him. I'm not asking to become some untouchable god mode character but I'd like to have more variety and actually be able to grind enemies that give more than 10xp. Having to build your character "right" is a big problem as its blatant power building and has destroyed all variety in warlock builds. You only have 3 invocations per level, I don't want to have to pick the "right" ones in order to stay alive, maybe underdark enemies are just stupid over powered but I'm the only one getting destroyed. Mages can summon meat shields that last for 20 minutes, but until you get epic gate you're stuck with the useless undead or the good but unreliable shadow demo spell.

I haven't pick the "wrong class" I picked warlock as I wanted to roleplay a warlock. I had assumed with how focused on "balance" this server is he would be able to survive decently, bur sue to fears of level 30 warlocks there is no balance for them. Again 30 damage and a the few useful wards available to them does not make it powerful. Level 30 warlocks may be powerful but one actually needs to get to level 30 to do so.

[NegInfinity]

Pre epic warlocks will always use vitriolic blast, most of the ones I've seen take

If every warlock you saw rolled the same build and can't think about making anything else that's their fault, not class fault. I've never seen two identical warlocks. There were melee warlocks, hipsing warlocks, somebody that had all the elements, etc.

It should definitely possible to level a warlock solo without significant difficulty, because for every pre-epic level there's a useful set of invocations.

Does it really matter if it's homebrewed?

Yes.

You only have 3 invocations per level

You have blast essences and shapes. Number of combinations is very high. You'll very quickly run out of space on quickbar.

haven't pick the "wrong class" I picked warlock as I wanted to roleplay a warlock. I had assumed with how focused on "balance" this server is he would be able to survive decently, bur sue to fears of level 30 warlocks there is no balance for them. Again 30 damage and a the few useful wards available to them does not make it powerful. Level 30 warlocks may be powerful but one actually needs to get to level 30 to do so.

I still think that you picked a wrong class, though. "Wrong" meaning the one that does not fit you well.

You apparently made an incorrect assumption about what walrock is, and you incorrectly assumed that D&D is supposed to be balanced. D&D is not balanced at all. It is not an MMO. You pick the class then figure out the best way to utilize it. If all you think of is "damage", you definitely should pick something else.

At least that's how I see it.

[ragnarok1983]

Been here many years. Feedback:

Clerics/FS: Easy if built right. Good damage. High AC.
Gishes: Easy if built right. Good damage. High AC.
Warlocks: Easy, but low AC if pure. Good to great damage. Simply "easy" if a HiPSter. Gets slightly harder in later levels due to low AC.
Stealth/Hips/Sneaks/Deathattackers: Easy at first, but gets a bit harder in later levels. Low AC. Good to Great Damage.

All other Noncasters: Fairly Miserable. Some builds have good AC and good damage. Entirely reliant upon millions of GP worth of gear/wands/kits/friends.

[NegInfinity]

To the op:

I'd like also to point out that it is generally not a good idea to compare warlock to archer by damage output alone.

Archer does one thing - hits one target at a time.

Warlock is essentially a multi-purpose weapon with infinite ammo in it.
A grenade launcher, flamethrower, or far reaching point attack (that also has higher hit chance than arrow) and each of those has multiple ammuniton types.

Blast a crowd with eldritch doom and you'll instantly outdamage your archer. Even when one eldritch blast averages at 30 points of damage. Not to mention that you already have higher energy resistance, damage resistance, and most likely have infinitely recastable stoneskin + immunity to sneak attacks oh, and you can run around all day invisible.

Which is why I suggested that you might want to play a different class.

[The Whistler]

Glaive would be an awesome addition, if only from a flavor standpoint. If you slap a reflex/fort CD for 1/2 damage, it would be just fine.

[Karond]

I see what you mean, but in comparison to the other epic characters I've seen 64 damage is pretty low.

Okay, if noone is going to correct this I will. 21D6 is not 63-64 damage on average. It's 73.5 damage. Plus, most warlocks pick at least a few epic eldritch blast feats each adding 5.25 damage.

Warlocks are strong, they have a niche in PvP and they're far better than any other caster in PvM due to infinite amount of spells and the likes of repelling blast. The thing about warlocks is that they're reliable damage dealers. The ranged touch attacks hit pretty much anything, unlike that of melee or ranged warriors, and as said warlocks do area of effect damage as well. No caster does even close to the amount of damage that warlocks do, it's their niche among casters.

The thing with balance is that you can't just add things without considering all it enables. So while one player would love to have wizards be less of a chore to level up at level 1-5, we can't just provide something that does that if it also can be exploited at higher levels for more power. That's a power creep we would like to avoid.

Sadly that's what most suggestions boils down too, including guttural invocations or empower/maximize etc. Sure, it would help someone at earlier levels but it would also give all warlock players far more power as well. Some players like to claim this is a "learn to play" issue, and sometimes it is.

However, while variety is appreciated, any additions need to actually do only that and nothing else. Adding something like guttural invocations would quickly make most warlocks guttural warlocks, like how 95% of druids are dragon shape druids. Currently, DC warlocks do suffer a little bit compared to the "no charisma all damage"-warlocks not to mention melee warlocks or indeed the possible in lore but completely impossible in game "warlock summoner".

Addressing variety is all well and good, homebew or not, I agree. The thing is finding out how to do just that. Rasael has a suggestion on more pacts each having different invocation lists and a minor bonus, and that's one way even though they'll all play pretty much the same. If you can think of any changes that would premiere variety on an equal or at least mediocre power level, I'm sure everyone would be all ears

As an example, hierophant was the best addition of the last update because it was the only class that brought true variety at a decent power level to DC clerics and non-shifting druids, whom previously were all about melee or dragon-shifting. Melee or dragon-shifting is still strong, arguably a bit stronger than the new variety hierophant brought in, but at least hierophant can encourage a new direction and as such variety.

[Nocturnus]

Pre epic warlocks will always use vitriolic blast, most of the ones I've seen take

If every warlock you saw rolled the same build and can't think about making anything else that's their fault, not class fault. I've never seen two identical warlocks. There were melee warlocks, hipsing warlocks, somebody that had all the elements, etc.

It does not matter if things are homebrewed, "lore" should not get in the way of fun.

It should definitely possible to level a warlock solo without significant difficulty, because for every pre-epic level there's a useful set of invocations.

Does it really matter if it's homebrewed?

Yes.

You only have 3 invocations per level

You have blast essences and shapes. Number of combinations is very high. You'll very quickly run out of space on quickbar.

haven't pick the "wrong class" I picked warlock as I wanted to roleplay a warlock. I had assumed with how focused on "balance" this server is he would be able to survive decently, bur sue to fears of level 30 warlocks there is no balance for them. Again 30 damage and a the few useful wards available to them does not make it powerful. Level 30 warlocks may be powerful but one actually needs to get to level 30 to do so.

I still think that you picked a wrong class, though. "Wrong" meaning the one that does not fit you well.

You apparently made an incorrect assumption about what walrock is, and you incorrectly assumed that D&D is supposed to be balanced. D&D is not balanced at all. It is not an MMO. You pick the class then figure out the best way to utilize it. If all you think of is "damage", you definitely should pick something else.

At least that's how I see it.

Obviously there are slight variations, I imagine when a warlock reaches epic levels and all spells can breach spell resistance (I said before past the umberhulks in the UD pretty much all enemies has spell resitance) But from what I have personally seen, mostly people take roughly the same invocations. There are some I haven't seen anyone use, although I do not play on the surface so I haven't met all the servers warlocks.

I agree it's not the classes fault, it's the servers fault and the players fault. As people rarely take invocations that fit the source of their power (i.e. Feylocks taking Words of changing/hellspawned grace). I can see why though, when I was playing my far realms warlock, it was really limiting and he ended up overspecialized. So yes that's my fault, but I was trying to stay as lore friendly as possible.

I'm not saying dnd is balanced, but with all the whining and nerfing over so called balance, I figured they would keep all classes balanced. Un nerf Deep gnomes, warrior of darkness, Dragon Warrior, etc otherwise it's pure hypocrisy

[Nocturnus]

I see what you mean, but in comparison to the other epic characters I've seen 64 damage is pretty low.

Okay, if noone is going to correct this I will. 21D6 is not 63-64 damage on average. It's 73.5 damage. Plus, most warlocks pick at least a few epic eldritch blast feats each adding 5.25 damage.

Warlocks are strong, they have a niche in PvP and they're far better than any other caster in PvM due to infinite amount of spells and the likes of repelling blast. The thing about warlocks is that they're reliable damage dealers. The ranged touch attacks hit pretty much anything, unlike that of melee or ranged warriors, and as said warlocks do area of effect damage as well. No caster does even close to the amount of damage that warlocks do, it's their niche among casters.

The thing with balance is that you can't just add things without considering all it enables. So while one player would love to have wizards be less of a chore to level up at level 1-5, we can't just provide something that does that if it also can be exploited at higher levels for more power. That's a power creep we would like to avoid.

Sadly that's what most suggestions boils down too, including guttural invocations or empower/maximize etc. Sure, it would help someone at earlier levels but it would also give all warlock players far more power as well. Some players like to claim this is a "learn to play" issue, and sometimes it is.

However, while variety is appreciated, any additions need to actually do only that and nothing else. Adding something like guttural invocations would quickly make most warlocks guttural warlocks, like how 95% of druids are dragon shape druids. Currently, DC warlocks do suffer a little bit compared to the "no charisma all damage"-warlocks not to mention melee warlocks or indeed the possible in lore but completely impossible in game "warlock summoner".

Addressing variety is all well and good, homebew or not, I agree. The thing is finding out how to do just that. Rasael has a suggestion on more pacts each having different invocation lists and a minor bonus, and that's one way even though they'll all play pretty much the same. If you can think of any changes that would premiere variety on an equal or at least mediocre power level, I'm sure everyone would be all ears

As an example, hierophant was the best addition of the last update because it was the only class that brought true variety at a decent power level to DC clerics and non-shifting druids, whom previously were all about melee or dragon-shifting. Melee or dragon-shifting is still strong, arguably a bit stronger than the new variety hierophant brought in, but at least hierophant can encourage a new direction and as such variety.

Well, I said before yes they get stronger at epic levels, but 8d6 at level 18 is not reliable damage. More warlock summons or another improvement at least (also fixing lure shadow demons would be great as unless you're in a wide open space 0-1 will spawn which can get you killed) While you may say join with other players, that is rarely an option in the underdark and on the surface Warlocks in theory would hide their powers (i think).

A good way to create more variety is to enforce pact powers like how cleric domains are enforced. Perhaps make brimstone/hellrime blast have a +2 bonus to beat spell resistance? Or get ride of Vitriolic blasts ignoring of spell resistance (until 21? when all invocations ignore it). Eldrich blast focus would be a nice addition for DC warlocks (which is what I'm playing)

I think the meta blast feats added so it can only be used as 2/3 times a rest would help greatly and make those who use those feats be more careful about using them. Just a thought.

Also What I think would solve this is Some sort of feat that helps blast output a bit during pre epic levels, but then is replaced by a small DC increase during epic levels. If someone doesn't like it they simply just could not take the feat. Also I beileive in the prc pack there are amulets that increase blast damage, even if it's just 2d6 or something it would still help low levels and not give much to epic levels

[NegInfinity]

Well, I said before yes they get stronger at epic levels, but 8d6 at level 18 is not reliable damage.

It is. Use chains, dooms and fight crowds. You'll outlast that archer of yours.

Also, PnP warlocks don't HAVE summons. The only summoning invocation is "summon swarm". That's it. Nothing else.

They do have interesting invocation called "steal summon", though..

Or get ride of Vitriolic blasts ignoring of spell resistance (until 21? when all invocations ignore it).

That will kill the class. You'll hit spell-resistant enemies even in epic levels.