FAI tied thumbs rule

[TheLier]

Hello guys,

I decided to start a thread about this becuse this is something which bugged me since I started playing here. It simply makes little sense

DISCLAIMER: I know this is from PnP material, but that does not make it any more sensible in my opinion.

Now, let's say that the guards, are somehow just able to determine that you are a mage, or (and this bugs me even more), a monk. This is impossible unless the said person is a regular and the guards know him/her by name, profession etc. And as per lore, FAI has a lot of patrons, and those regulars would be a pretty low number. But let's put that aside.

I see why this rule is there. It prevents most spellcasting (still spell would still work), and ?monks to carry their weapon? (which agan, is pretty damn stupid, some monks do carry weapons, so all who has none, are required to tie their thumbs to their belt becuse they might be monks?). But that is not the only thing it prevents.

PCs are humanoids, capable with thumbs which can perform so called "opposition and appostion", more simply, rotation on a wide axis. Now one must use that function for most actions, not to mention the complex ones, with their hand. For example, opening a door, their bag, counting coins, grabbing what they bought. This simply makes them impossible to do most things.

Honestly, this would do two things: make all spellcasters and monks stay away from Bentley's all knowning guards, and in effect lowering the number of his patrons + losing it's place as a netural meeting point, as all capable of magic would not be able to do anything in the keep without aid, as they are literally helpless.

For this reason, I would kindly ask the DM team to consider earsing this rule.

And I do have a solution to offer: Restrict this rule for those who are known violators of the rules within the Inn/people who are considered too dangerous by Bentley (again DMs decide). And setup wards which prevents teleportation within the Inn.

Of course the reason why this is public, is that I would like input from players, as long as it is civil etc.

That is all, cheers.

[finneas]

I always took this as more of a tongue in cheek warning that if you don't respect the "no violence of any kind" rule within the FAI then you should expect the full wrath of punishment available to the staff for violating the rules of the establishment. Monks by their very requirement are lawful to begin with, be it evil, neutral or good.

[TheLier]

I always took this as more of a tongue in cheek warning that if you don't respect the "no violence of any kind" rule within the FAI then you should expect the full wrath of punishment available to the staff for violating the rules of the establishment. Monks by their very requirement are lawful to begin with, be it evil, neutral or good.

It is stated as an exact rule and not like a warning though

[Maecius]

I'd have to double check, as it's been a long time since I read the lore on the place, but as your disclaimer says I think it's a lore based rule?

But even if not, in the lore, the inn is pitched as a neutral meeting zone between various good and not-so-good factions of the Sword Coast, so it's likely meant as a good will gesture to put visitors at ease.

But just like a sword knot is more symbolic than anything else, it probably wouldn't stop a determined mage or monk. That's what the bar maids/maybe golems in disguise are for.

Still, if you're sitting down for peace talks with your enemy Wizwar the Magnificent, you might be a touch more comfortable with the added assurance he's not casting charm spells on your advisors under the table?

[kellendril]

I've often thought this rule is silly. Who ties both their own thumbs to their belt, really? Its physically impossible to do so, in fact. I think its kinda funny o imagine this town full of people with no use of their arms, trying to open doors and exchange money with merchants..

[Steve]

It always read as one thumb, to me, symbolic in gesture, and...well, it does make it slightly more difficult to turn someone into a rabbit (considering, most spells use 2 hands?!!?). Swords in scabbards is also a gesture—it could be that one attacks another...but warning! That's gonna be bad for your toon!

http://bgtscc.net/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=42477&start=1

[TheLier]

I'd have to double check, as it's been a long time since I read the lore on the place, but as your disclaimer says I think it's a lore based rule?

But even if not, in the lore, the inn is pitched as a neutral meeting zone between various good and not-so-good factions of the Sword Coast, so it's likely meant as a good will gesture to put visitors at ease.

But just like a sword knot is more symbolic than anything else, it probably wouldn't stop a determined mage or monk. That's what the bar maids/maybe golems in disguise are for.

Still, if you're sitting down for peace talks with your enemy Wizwar the Magnificent, you might be a touch more comfortable with the added assurance he's not casting charm spells on your advisors under the table?

My point was, that it is just silly, tied thumbs make it impossible for a mage to, as I said, open doors or perform even the most basic actions.

[metaquad4]

What if the mage only has 1 arm? What if he has none? If the guards can identify mages and monks magically on sight, how are they unaware of still-spell?

Truthfully, this rule always seemed silly! Most people don't even RP it anyway, even the well-renowned mages. It could be taken out, and literally nothing would change. Which means, its probably unnecessary! But, hey. Maybe it makes Bentley feel safer. Whatever lets the little guy sleep at night, right?

[Tsidkenu]

Yet the first assassin the protagonist meets in BG1 is a mage who casts spells from inside the FAI courtyard! And no guard, not even Bentley, lift a finger to help you!

It's a token gesture at best, surely!

[Charraj]

There's an IC-related part of the original post and an OOC-related part of the original post, and I think we might be mixing up the two.

This part is IC-related:

Honestly, this would do two things: make all spellcasters and monks stay away from Bentley's all knowning guards, and in effect lowering the number of his patrons + losing it's place as a netural meeting point, as all capable of magic would not be able to do anything in the keep without aid, as they are literally helpless.

This point can (and IMHO, should) be addressed through RP. You can make a post about your character complaining to Bentley, or RP around the issue, like hiring someone to run errands inside the FAI because your character would never leave himself helpless and vulnerable. I think this is actually an RP opportunity, not a reason for the DMs to repeal a lore-based IC rule.

This part is OOC-related:

Now, let's say that the guards, are somehow just able to determine that you are a mage, or (and this bugs me even more), a monk. This is impossible unless the said person is a regular and the guards know him/her by name, profession etc.

I totally understand where OP is coming from here. But I think it might make more sense to ask the DMs how the guards are supposed to tell which characters are monks and wizards, and ask for an OOC clarification on when a character might be able to get away with not tying down a thumb.

I think the IC rule should stay in place. But maybe have an OOC clarification that those characters dressed as wizards and monks, or known to the guards as wizards and monks through DM interaction, would be made to tie down a thumb.

Then again, would that lead to players potentially metagaming the NPCs with disguises, etc? *shrugs* Iunno! Just thinking out loud here.

[Flasmix]

I would love for there to be some huge attack that incapacitates all of the FAI guards. I can see it now...

Bentley: "Adventurers, the guards are down! To arms my patrons!"
Warrior: "Sorry Bentley, no weapons allowed in the Friendly Arms. Nice try."
Wizard: "I would assist you, but my thumb is currently tied to my belt."

[LISA100595]

I would love for there to be some huge attack that incapacitates all of the FAI guards. I can see it now...

Bentley: "Adventurers, the guards are down! To arms my patrons!"
Warrior: "Sorry Bentley, no weapons allowed in the Friendly Arms. Nice try."
Wizard: "I would assist you, but my thumb is currently tied to my belt."

LOL There was... Everyone forgets the FAI was attacked during the Black Orc War.. more than once Bentley did not mind weapons or untying thumbs then

[Steve]

Wizards have pointy hats. Monks have bald heads.

Duh.

Christ people, the FAI rules ARE a combination of OOC needs to prevent arsehats rolled into IC rules in order to make the game "realistic." A Mage or monk would "tie their thumb" or a warrior string up their sword to scabbard as a gesture of calm and respect—and those without either, might very well, at times, bring IC violence into the FAI. And the Guards WOULD react.

But what historically was brought was arsehattery, and then DMs has to deal with the bull shit.

Whenever a Player plays out something IC against the IC rules, then we get real RP. So make this issue BE an RP issue, instead of a OOC complaint against what is pretty self evident to as why it exists.

[TheLier]

Wizards have pointy hats. Monks have bald heads.

Duh.

Christ people, the FAI rules ARE a combination of OOC needs to prevent arsehats rolled into IC rules in order to make the game "realistic." A Mage or monk would "tie their thumb" or a warrior string up their sword to scabbard as a gesture of calm and respect—and those without either, might very well, at times, bring IC violence into the FAI. And the Guards WOULD react.

But what historically was brought was arsehattery, and then DMs has to deal with the bull (#2).

Whenever a Player plays out something IC against the IC rules, then we get real RP. So make this issue BE an RP issue, instead of a OOC complaint against what is pretty self evident to as why it exists.

Well, I might be a radical, but one of my main point was, that it is impossible that this system could work, or the place would be known, as the inn where wizards need goons to perform the most basic actions.

Just think about it for a second, it does not make any sense. This should be a meeting point mostly for travellers. And travelling mages don't always walk around with a large group of servants.

So no, it is lore wise not self evident. And as we already have things like the Slayers here, I don't see why this could not be amended. offically.


But you know what? I will take the issue up personally. I will write it in my bio for DMs that my current main (if needed I will give his name), will not tie his thumb to his belt. Plus I will announce it now, offically. Let us see what happens. Altough, considering the fact that the toon does not hang out there everyday *shrugs*. I will wait and see for reactions.

[Steve]

And travelling mages don't always walk around with a large group of servants.

And as we already have things like the Slayers here,

On these two points given to sway the discussion:

Mages are not constantly casting spells all the time, either. I refer you to this.

The FAI is "...a safe haven for travellers." That is known, IC lore. You think that is Lore when arsehats want to brandish swords and cast Bigbys every damn time another PC steps on their new keds?!?

Bringing up the Slayers as a means to devalue the Lore of the Forgotten Realms or the Server, is arguing apples with oranges, mate. Maybe I can ask you just take a read here, and see how the Server and the Staff are trying to honor Lore, when they can? And if at sometimes they fail in some aspects, does that mean every other thing needs a challenge??