Build Suggestion: Cleric/FS of Torm and Some Lore problem

[realayer]

I am new to this PW, and I am thinking about doing a holy warrior style of RP. After reading from the first to the last page of this section, I have come up with two builds which I think suit my playstyle. But since I am new to character building, I am very in need of the experts here to give me some feedback about the pros and cons of each build.

Here they are:
Str Cleric Fighter http://nwn2db.com/build/?243359
and
EDM FS/Pal/DC http://nwn2db.com/build/?243361

This is the updated EDM FS/Pal I am planning to build: http://nwn2db.com/build/?243368

Both play in a similar style, buff and then melee, with cleric being relatively more constant becoz of STR and fighter feats, and the FS being more rely on buffs and E/DM. But FS is more versatile: access to lvl 9 spell and able to use greatsword or switch to board and warhammer (becoz of less feats invested). Cleric only has access to lvl 6 spell but still able to cast lvl 9 spell with appropriate equipment, and mostly using board and hammer.

Which one is better? And did I overlook something in building? Also if possible, how can they be better? Thank you in advance for your expertise!

The above is my original post of asking some suggestion over Str Cleric and EDM FS. As the discussion develops (see below) I am now keen on knowing the equipment setup of paladin or FS of Torm, or even does FS of Torm exist? As Thorsson suggests, does there really no leeway in equipment by being a paladin/FS, that has to choose greatsword as their weapon of choice regardless of their personally preference?

Hope to hear more input in this regard! Thanks!

[Tsidkenu]

They're both pretty bad, to be brutal.

This server has fixed a long standing Obsidian bug which accounted character level for caster level when it comes to being dispelled. Basically you want to aim at having at 30 caster level, if possible, to avoid being turned into a flailing wet noodle by a single Greater Dispel, which is what will happen to both of those builds.

An EDM FS 26/Pal 4 is a standard go-to build for this kind of thing.

[realayer]

They're both pretty bad, to be brutal.

This server has fixed a long standing Obsidian bug which accounted character level for caster level when it comes to being dispelled. Basically you want to aim at having at 30 caster level, if possible, to avoid being turned into a flailing wet noodle by a single Greater Dispel, which is what will happen to both of those builds.

An EDM FS 26/Pal 4 is a standard go-to build for this kind of thing.

Thank you for your insight.

So it seems if one has to utilize the great buffs from the cleric/fs line there is not much variations in character builds? How common is Greater dispel? Are there many mob have this spell and cast them often?

[Tsidkenu]

They are around, yes, especially at higher level areas. When the dispel fix was patched in both the frequency of dispel-casting mobs was slightly reduced, but they are around and the last place to want to be turned into a steaming bowl of Shin Ramyeon is when you're surrounded by orcs, or nagas or facing up to the frost giant king

I mean you are free to ignore the mechanical considerations and run with a build -you- like! I have several deliberately gimped characters like this because I want to RP a concept rather than seek ways to abuse the game's mechanical engine.

Have fun building! There are endless possibilities out there

[realayer]

They are around, yes, especially at higher level areas. When the dispel fix was patched in both the frequency of dispel-casting mobs was slightly reduced, but they are around and the last place to want to be turned into a steaming bowl of Shin Ramyeon is when you're surrounded by orcs, or nagas or facing up to the frost giant king

I mean you are free to ignore the mechanical considerations and run with a build -you- like! I have several deliberately gimped characters like this because I want to RP a concept rather than seek ways to abuse the game's mechanical engine.

Have fun building! There are endless possibilities out there

Thank you again! I aim to get the most out a class and it seems that Cleric/FS has to have CL as close to 30 as possible to be effective. So that seems to be the path for me now.

Now comes the comparison between a Str based cleric vs EDM FS.

At lvl 30 a Str-based cleric26/fighter4 will have around 26-28 Str, with buffs and some fighter feats would it be an effective melee fighter? And how does it compares to EDM FS26/Pal4, which has only 21/2 Str but EDM? Would EDM make up the loss of 4-6 Str?

[Thorsson]

Now comes the comparison between a Str based cleric vs EDM FS.

At lvl 30 a Str-based cleric26/fighter4 will have around 26-28 Str, with buffs and some fighter feats would it be an effective melee fighter? And how does it compares to EDM FS26/Pal4, which has only 21/2 Str but EDM? Would EDM make up the loss of 4-6 Str?

For mechanical power the FS wins out - both because it will do more damage (providing it doesn't run out of EDMs) and because it has flexibility about what spells it casts, and the DR at level 20 does no harm either. The Cleric has more different spells, a higher AB and some Feats to spare, but these cannot be seen as equal to the FS advantages. FS/Pal is so powerful that I wouldn't play it - makes BGTSCC too easy.

PS you might want FS25/Pal5 to get Divine Shield. We don't have the Kaedrin ability to take Divine Feats on non-turning class levels here on BGTSCC AFAIK. It's why there are so many Evil Aasimar - FS26/BG4 works...

[realayer]

Now comes the comparison between a Str based cleric vs EDM FS.

At lvl 30 a Str-based cleric26/fighter4 will have around 26-28 Str, with buffs and some fighter feats would it be an effective melee fighter? And how does it compares to EDM FS26/Pal4, which has only 21/2 Str but EDM? Would EDM make up the loss of 4-6 Str?

For mechanical power the FS wins out - both because it will do more damage (providing it doesn't run out of EDMs) and because it has flexibility about what spells it casts, and the DR at level 20 does no harm either. The Cleric has more different spells, a higher AB and some Feats to spare, but these cannot be seen as equal to the FS advantages. FS/Pal is so powerful that I wouldn't play it - makes BGTSCC too easy.

PS you might want FS25/Pal5 to get Divine Shield. We don't have the Kaedrin ability to take Divine Feats on non-turning class levels here on BGTSCC AFAIK. It's why there are so many Evil Aasimar - FS26/BG4 works...

Indeed, after building these builds, I personally like the versatility of FS, adapting to solo and group situations without preparing spells. So it seems I am going towards FS then. And for RP reasons, even my deity's favoured weapon is greatsword, my toon will mainly use shield and warhammer for this one do not want to spill the blood of the enemy. Hope some RPing will tune down the power of FS.

[realayer]

So here is my build now: EDM FS 25/Pal 5
http://nwn2db.com/build/?243368

I just some questions for feats selections...
Is there any feats that I must have to maximize my buffs and melee capability?
And is able learner worth it? as it gives you 3 more dodge AC with 30 tumble
Also with abundance skill points provided by 12 int... what skill should I invested in?

Any comments will be appreciated! Thanks!

[Thorsson]

So here is my build now: EDM FS 25/Pal 5
http://nwn2db.com/build/?243368

I just some questions for feats selections...
Is there any feats that I must have to maximize my buffs and melee capability?
And is able learner worth it? as it gives you 3 more dodge AC with 30 tumble
Also with abundance skill points provided by 12 int... what skill should I invested in?

Any comments will be appreciated! Thanks!

Tumble is not a class skill for Paladin on BGTSCC, so that won't work.

Otherwise maybe you need to think a bit about how you're going to RP your FS. Torm's Portfolio is Duty, Loyalty, Obedience. First thing you've said is that you want to rebel against his Favored Weapon...

[realayer]

So here is my build now: EDM FS 25/Pal 5
http://nwn2db.com/build/?243368

I just some questions for feats selections...
Is there any feats that I must have to maximize my buffs and melee capability?
And is able learner worth it? as it gives you 3 more dodge AC with 30 tumble
Also with abundance skill points provided by 12 int... what skill should I invested in?

Any comments will be appreciated! Thanks!

Tumble is not a class skill for Paladin on BGTSCC, so that won't work.

Otherwise maybe you need to think a bit about how you're going to RP your FS. Torm's Portfolio is Duty, Loyalty, Obedience. First thing you've said is that you want to rebel against his Favored Weapon...

As a RP discussion, is all cleric and paladin of Torm use greatsword only? Isn't FS sometime don't follow the hierarchy?

[Thorsson]

As a RP discussion, is all cleric and paladin of Torm use greatsword only? Isn't FS sometime don't follow the hierarchy?

Clerics don't have to for certain. Some Favored Souls rebel a bit against their destiny, but with Torm? I'd get a DM ruling on that, because if it were me deciding on Torm's response... Let's put it this way; I don't think he'd be amused. But then my views on RP are purely my own; you're 100% free to ignore them. Everybody else does.

[Planehopper]

While I agree with Thorsson in that Torm would not tolerate disobedience, or a failure to uphold duty, etc. I am not so sure that I would carry that down all the way to weapon selection.

I tend to interpret things my own way sometimes, though. I gotta admit I am not too keen on FS myself (they didn't have them in my day) so I don't know a lot of the RP about what they are "supposed" to do.

I always interpreted the weapon proficiency as a given talent, and not a forced mandate, but again I defer to those that play them.

[realayer]

Clerics don't have to for certain. Some Favored Souls rebel a bit against their destiny, but with Torm? I'd get a DM ruling on that, because if it were me deciding on Torm's response... Let's put it this way; I don't think he'd be amused. But then my views on RP are purely my own; you're 100% free to ignore them. Everybody else does.

That's interesting point of discussion.

My understanding of Torm's portfolio of loyalty and obedience are much more ideological - that's the fealty to one liege or deity and doing what superior ordered you to do. Not using the deity's favoured weapon does not mean that one does not loyal and obey to their liege or deity.

Also isn't another side of Torm's portfolio stresses goodness and mercy? Avoid using edged weapon to spill blood or even dismember your enemy is an act of showing enemy mercy, at least from my point of view. This should justify my FS being loyal to his deity and at the same time rebel by not using his deity's favoured weapon.

[Thorsson]

Rule 1 is "Play your Character Sheet", yes? Well your character sheet says that you are focused and specialized on Greatsword.

With some deities you could see this as a good source for some creative disagreement, but Torm is not that kind of deity. This is the guy who will do his duty unto death (which is a pretty big deal for a deity).

Torm is merciful (at least compared to Tyr), but "The Loyal Fury is unflinching in his duty and judges his faithful accordingly. He is stern, righteous, and unyielding, yet his heart is filled first and foremost with goodness, and he can be a kind and gentle power when dealing with the young, the weak, and faithful friends of all sorts." Torm is also very strongly associated with 2-handed swords. The 'avoid using edged weapons' doesn't really fit with 3.5 IMO, it's a hangover from Gygax's earlier versions.

[realayer]

Rule 1 is "Play your Character Sheet", yes? Well your character sheet says that you are focused and specialized on Greatsword.

That's another interesting point. Being focused and specialized in one weapon does that mean one cannot use other weapons? By playing my character sheet, my FS also have weapon proficiency (martial), doesn't mean that my char can use other martial weapon as well?

That really makes me curious about the equipment of Torm's paladin.

Reflecting on all these builds and RP issues, might as well build a EDM cleric/fighter, which is doable with tighter restriction on selecting feats. But should be able to use warhammer instead of greatsword RP-wise.