DM Ruling on Undead Summining...

[Bad Omens]

Ok, twice in one day I did witness players summoning and walking around with Undead, plus evil companions. Now, my characters were not Paladins (one Wizard EK Dragon Slayer, the other Spirit Shaman Hospitalir Avenger) but both are goodly characters. So, here is my question, how should I handle that......walk away hear no evil, see no evil, or confront the source and try to end the use of necromancy and dark arts?

I see it especially since last year's siege of BG as end the source of necromancy. I wonder if the KOS of undead on the surface has been lifted by the team....?

[Akroma666]

If summoned in front of you, I believe you should be able to KoS. But I was told that is not the case.. (And I am evil with undead). Just my 2c.

[Maecius]

From: http://bgtscc.net/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=3170

The official rule states:

Summons can be attacked on sight, but normal PvP rules must be followed for the summoner (the player). The owner of the summons must also follow normal PvP rules in order to attack the killer of his or her summons. (Summons include any creature that can be summoned through a spell or an ability, and that is not a Familiar or an Animal Companion: These include angels, devils, elementals, and undead, among others.)

The way I worded it, once upon a time, in plainspeak:

Summoned creatures (including evil animal companions [on the surface]; but not normal familiars or animal companions), and undead are KOS (yes, this includes angels). The SUMMONER/ANIMATOR has not consented to PVP, however, and must still be given roleplay before PVP occurs.

If the DMs decide to change these rules, the rules will be updated to reflect their changes. Be advised that I do not know the DM team's official stance on evil animal companions on the surface, so my description above may be outdated if they're protected now under the blanket animal companion rule.

EDIT: Oh, wait, slightly different rule for them I guess:

However, the owner of a Monstrous Humanoid, Hellhound, or Worg animal companion consents to PvP if s/he is seen on the surface with that animal companion.

[Steve]

...or confront the source and try to end the use of necromancy and dark arts?

What about IC "rules?"

- Summons of Elemental or Companion in nature are forbidden, and such action will result in punishment fitting the crime. Summons of all other means, such be it undead or planar in nature, shall result in banishment or death of the summoner, as determined by judicial ruling.
- Practicing Necromancy, eldritch magic, and those Arts that are known as Blood Magic are strictly forbidden, punishable by banishment or death, as determined by judicial ruling. Creation of items or trade of such magic in any form is equally punishable.

I'd say any Character that morally opposes the walking dead and would be of the alignment to take justice into their own hand, might confront and destroy, without question. Of course, PvP Rules guide the OOC of the situation.

[Bad Omens]

Ok, thank you for your responses, that does help.

PvP rules were followed and in both cases I allowed the other party to walk away without PvP ensuing (one player removed summons, second transitioned from map). Still, I think there was a bit of confusion and incredulity on the part of the other parties and so to avoid any further confusion, I wanted to make sure there were appropriate rulings made public knowledge.

Sorry for any confusion both on the forum and by those players. Thank you to both those whom responded and to those players IG for their understanding as well.

(Steve, that is interesting hearing about the elemental summons.......especially since Doron Amar has guardian golems standing at their gates But, I am sure that can be followed up by another player, I will choose hear no evil, see no evil on that one )

[Steve]

I'm thinking Doron Amar is more a sovereign state on the Sword Coast, and can do whatever the hellz they want at their gates! Besides, Elves listen to none other than themselves!

[DaamienZ]

Keep in mind a lot of the surface areas are considered lawless.

What about IC "rules?"

IC Laws of the Land for Baldur's Gate wrote:
- Summons of Elemental or Companion in nature are forbidden, and such action will result in punishment fitting the crime. Summons of all other means, such be it undead or planar in nature, shall result in banishment or death of the summoner, as determined by judicial ruling.
- Practicing Necromancy, eldritch magic, and those Arts that are known as Blood Magic are strictly forbidden, punishable by banishment or death, as determined by judicial ruling. Creation of items or trade of such magic in any form is equally punishable.

This, for example, applies to BG and surroundings. Basically, land that falls under the Duke's influence. It would not apply between, say, Soubar and Triel, where you met my character with a summoned undead

A negative reaction to such an act is of course fine and expected! But don't go quoting laws IC in such a place and expect folk to respect them, because baby there are none.

[Bad Omens]

This is why the DMs need to make a decision.
The original question was not the laws of the land, but rather what does a goodly character do?
Should the goodly character ignore it, if it is in lawless land?
Should the Necromancer take great offense, if it is in lawless land?
Do the lawless lands support Necromancy, or is it considered evil?

[NegInfinity]

This is why the DMs need to make a decision.
The original question was not the laws of the land, but rather what does a goodly character do?
Should the goodly character ignore it, if it is in lawless land?
Should the Necromancer take great offense, if it is in lawless land?
Do the lawless lands support Necromancy, or is it considered evil?

Goodly character does whatever he/she wants. You are not bound by your alignment to do something specific, because your character is not a mindless robot.

You may be bound by your code of conduct to do something specific, though, if you're lawful or a cleric.

[Thorsson]

You might even do something about it if you were Lawful Evil. Not every Evil person loves Necromancy.

[DM Golem]

From: http://bgtscc.net/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=3170

The official rule states:

Summons can be attacked on sight, but normal PvP rules must be followed for the summoner (the player). The owner of the summons must also follow normal PvP rules in order to attack the killer of his or her summons. (Summons include any creature that can be summoned through a spell or an ability, and that is not a Familiar or an Animal Companion: These include angels, devils, elementals, and undead, among others.)

The way I worded it, once upon a time, in plainspeak:

Summoned creatures (including evil animal companions [on the surface]; but not normal familiars or animal companions), and undead are KOS (yes, this includes angels). The SUMMONER/ANIMATOR has not consented to PVP, however, and must still be given roleplay before PVP occurs.

If the DMs decide to change these rules, the rules will be updated to reflect their changes. Be advised that I do not know the DM team's official stance on evil animal companions on the surface, so my description above may be outdated if they're protected now under the blanket animal companion rule.

EDIT: Oh, wait, slightly different rule for them I guess:

However, the owner of a Monstrous Humanoid, Hellhound, or Worg animal companion consents to PvP if s/he is seen on the surface with that animal companion.

I am just quoting Maecius' post as it sums up the current DM team stance and quotes the neccessary rules.

As to what your character would do? It depends on the character. This is not something that there is a "should" thing to rule on.

I certainly can see a large scope of character archetypes that would have an issue with summoned undead. (of course their reaction might be to run away shouting "Aaaah necromancer!" )

Long and the short of it, if your character would confront a necromancer, do so, but give proper RP outs

[Stonebar]

To kill the summons you have to hostile the summoner which causes issues OOCly, and in some cases you can't tell who summoned it so you end up being unable to deal with an undead right in front of you. That said I'm not sure there is a mechanical way around that but it would be nice.

As for the unrelated topic discussion:

Summons of all other means, such be it undead or planar in nature, shall result in banishment or death of the summoner, as determined by judicial ruling.

With all the new added spells and summon options perhaps the laws should be updated to reflect that. It seems odd summoning an angel can get you banished or put to death in the same way summoning a Balor.

[Fragglerock]

Typically, when I see a summons, evil summons actually, and I can not determine the owner. I use flasks-fire or acid. That seems damage them, and with a few you can kill them. When I did this, the summons did not aggro me. So may take alot of flasks

[DM Golem]

To kill the summons you have to hostile the summoner which causes issues OOCly, and in some cases you can't tell who summoned it so you end up being unable to deal with an undead right in front of you. That said I'm not sure there is a mechanical way around that but it would be nice.

This would come under fair play by the summoner rules. They should pretty much facilitate hostile RP to their summon by OOC making contact and setting hostile, if they are hidden.

As for the unrelated topic discussion:

Summons of all other means, such be it undead or planar in nature, shall result in banishment or death of the summoner, as determined by judicial ruling.

With all the new added spells and summon options perhaps the laws should be updated to reflect that. It seems odd summoning an angel can get you banished or put to death in the same way summoning a Balor.

I've highlighted the relevant part. Sentencing will account for severity and magistrates have discretion to treat different summons differently. But all summoning in public areas is regarded poorly by the government of BG.

(Its not likely they would interfere with rituals within temples, mind, or even find out about them - the intention here is to prevent willy nilly summoning on the streets)

[Hawke]

The summoner should not be autoconsent PVP. Just as Maecius stated.

The rules of the lands about Necromancy (i.e. raising up undead) and Blood Magic is not for auto PVP... it's for opening up dialog and RPing a situation down, or up. This could be in game interaction, forum RP, etc. This includes all summons...

Now if you want to be a douche and kill someone's direwolf summons while they are conducting their tour de XP... well, that is your call. Continuously doing it, and not engaging the player on some level.. well that falls under a different ruleset altogether.

Not to say you cannot be a douche, but being a douche isn't really cool.