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The issue of death in (npc) battle
Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2016 8:57 pm
by Tantive
Roleplaying injured to dying, before death. I've found this rather difficult with how AI behaves. Because they continue on pounding that this state usually is skipped to death. In low levels you still get to see yourself dying before you kick the bucket, less so higher.
So I want to ask. Can dying state be extended? Enough so that one could actual roleplay the part before they kick the bucket? And as such, can AI be made to ignore a 'dying' character if there are other targets to further choose from? Or that some npc's prefer to maul to death, while others lose interest. Variations which makes some enemies more relentless then others.
Death comes easy, theres little chance for you to play injured or knocked out - cause npc's don't care. They keep coming. Surely theres way to change it?
Re: The issue of death in (npc) battle
Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2016 9:02 pm
by grymhild
please, this
Re: The issue of death in (npc) battle
Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2016 9:14 pm
by fearknight2003
Who would leave you alive, though?
Not the wild animals- they want to eat you.
Not the bandits- I think dying to them should make you lose gold, and on topic, they won't leave witnesses.
Not the undead- this one's obvious.
Not the xvarts, goblins, gnolls, or orcs- they want to eat you too.
Not the giants- they want to eat you again.
Not the wyverns- Again. Eating.
Not the dragons- ...Do I need to say it again?
Not the kobolds- Take a guess.
Not the cultists- Sa-cri-fice! Sa-cri-fice!
Anything I'm missing?
Re: The issue of death in (npc) battle
Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2016 9:27 pm
by Tantive
That still leaves threat. A thinking creature with instinct towards its own survival isn't going to continue on a target or eat them if theres a threat near to them. Which is something which would make undead more terrifying, they don't care. But there are more creatures in the spawnable repetiores for DM's or in the forrests which don't all do that.
Re: The issue of death in (npc) battle
Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2016 9:57 pm
by ShortRedandLoud
I had bats leave me alive the other day.
I think that was lag, though.
Re: The issue of death in (npc) battle
Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2016 10:41 pm
by Aspect of Sorrow
Could have the AI assertain a flag set by the DM to permit it running checks against the player, or, the DM could set a temporary immortal flag which provides damage to the health but doesn't invoke death.
Re: The issue of death in (npc) battle
Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2016 10:50 pm
by Blame The Rogue
i appreciate the intent behind the request, but the reality is that most rp dying as getting knocked out
i've played on servers where mobs leave you alone when you are incapped. the result more often than not is a long drawn out death lasting 5mins. the longest movie death scene ever. and after 5mins, if you make enough rolls, and are still alive, you stand up with 1hp, and get instantly killed again by the same mob, and then start the 5min timer all over again. it's just too long to await death imo
Re: The issue of death in (npc) battle
Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2016 2:14 am
by Tantive
In essence, if you had a 'I give up on life' button you could do press, it would end. But still thats the thing with solo play. Roleplaying death you do when there is someone around you.
Re: The issue of death in (npc) battle
Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2016 2:31 am
by Blame The Rogue
the bleed out mechanic/dying mechanic effects party play and solo play
if i fall in battle, my party cant continue until i survive, or die, then am raised. unless it would be possible to be healed out of this state by a party member. or party member leave party and aggro my half dead corpse and put me out of my misery in an ooc fashion. though i am unclear if either would cause death bugs. someone on staff familiar with the death system should be able to answer that
Re: The issue of death in (npc) battle
Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2016 3:00 am
by Tsidkenu
Dunno if I'm allowed to let the cat out of the bag yet but the death system is being looked at atm for a much needed overhaul, including the auto-fugue feature which we hope to change to a voluntary respawn to fugue feature, meaning a character can actually just lay dead, hearing all the convo around them without the need for tells or party chat, before getting raised or deciding to head off to fugue.
This will not affect monster aggro regarding unconcious (0 to -9 hp) toons, but I suppose the scripters could take a look at that if they want.
Re: The issue of death in (npc) battle
Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2017 1:33 pm
by Tantive
Its an old topic raised up, but revisited somewhat with the consequences/realism thread. I want to gauge the thought how things are or what we could do to improve the experience. A discussion.
Re: The issue of death in (npc) battle
Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2017 3:11 pm
by Aspect of Sorrow
* Check every 4 rounds for the presence of a player within 100m
* Set to immortal flag, not plot, in order to continue sustaining damage and overcoming regen
* Unbuff the felled character, to prevent DeathWard/ElemShield/BodyOfSun/etc from exploit tank activity
* After four rounds if the presence of a player isn't in range, continue death subsystem.
Pros:
1. It'd incite more group play than solo
2. It'd lessen the impact from a bugged system
3. Masochists can roleplay their condition while another is around
4. Lessens area transition activity
Cons:
1. Considerably exploitable, one can throw a newbie at the dragon for example, goes down instantly, and maintains aggro while the rest of the high leveled toons run sneak rolls, etc.
2. If the attacking NPC loses aggro, item regen brings the toon back to life, essentially without issue, cheapening death even further.
Re: The issue of death in (npc) battle
Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2017 4:39 pm
by Tantive
Aspect of Sorrow wrote:*snip*
Cons:
1. Considerably exploitable, one can throw a newbie at the dragon for example, goes down instantly, and maintains aggro while the rest of the high leveled toons run sneak rolls, etc.
2. If the attacking NPC loses aggro, item regen brings the toon back to life, essentially without issue, cheapening death even further.
Lets focus on the cons for a moment. What kind of solutions could be used to remove agro from a character on the ground. Something akin to a reverse taunt? One would assume a thing getting hit would prioritise the danger.
If a character is regenerated back to life, in how far should it be allowed that they can stand up? Do they suffer stat problems or fatigue until it is fixed/time has passed etc?
Re: The issue of death in (npc) battle
Posted: Mon Feb 13, 2017 10:48 am
by aaron22
when i see that cons list. it takes me to the issue in the consequences thread. the exploit spoke on by AoS is a very evil move. it also would not be very easy to pull off if there were harsher consequences to death. but even more than that, unless the PC's pulling it off are quite selfishly evil, this would be fairly immersion breaking. I understand that there are people that play the game not perform inside the community. i would certainly not wish to instruct anyone how to enjoy this medium, but this is an RP server albeit medium.
Re: The issue of death in (npc) battle
Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2017 2:28 pm
by PaulImposteur
In all my time playing, I don't think I've ever encountered people going out of their way to exploit things. Maybe I'm blind or just hang around with a certain crowd.
I think if people were in a party and saw someone was intentionally attempting this, they'd likely PM DMs as well. Generally our community is pretty stoic on cracking down on things that are abusive in the OOC sense.
Especially when something of this nature is not exactly ambiguous that could be mistaken as IC actions. It clearly is outlined as something being utilized for OOC, mechanical reasons. It's kind of like how people had talked about how RP-XP could be abused in the past.
Sure, people could abuse it. But, who really does? Especially when it's so looked down on so heavily. The other case of this is it requires a group to pull off these shenanigans, which someone whom is willing to exploit something, generally looks to solo to avoid getting banned.
I don't think the death system has ever really generated RP on this server. The RP of being grievously injured and on the brink of death is usually done while still alive and at low HP. That generates fun moments, but visiting Myrkul I'd argue does not.
When a character dies, it should in essence be a very significant event in their lives. It's hard to RP that, when death comes and goes as an OOC annoyance in the form of xp loss.
I don't see the xp loss as a problem, so much as I see being ported to Myrkul reading a few dialogue lines and porting out, or waiting for resurrection while sending tells to team-mates as something that detracts from the RP.
The moments waiting to be rezzed or running back to my group, could be moments for me RPing with them, rather than being an OOC experience.
Other issues I see with it, is how resurrection just negates the xp penalty. Not that I'm for or against the xp penalty mind you. But when people feel they wasted x amount of time if they use Myrkul instead of waiting for a friendly Cleric to rez them, that also does not contribute to RP.
You could argue the Cleric gets some RP out of it, but generally these affairs are kind of an OOC nicety, or a meet and greet. But, during this time of finding a Cleric and bringing them back to rez Robbie-the-Rogue, Robbie isn't getting any RP. He's likely sitting down, drinking a diet pepsi waiting for Willie-the-Wizard to get him rezzed.
Ultimately I feel like the whole system detracts from RP. Nothing about it feels like an IC affair, which is my issue with it. It doesn't feel as though it's part of the story, it's a bump in a road until we can get back to RPing.
I think the suggestion is a good one, it'd keep players feeling they're in the same realm. Rather than feeling the disenchantment of staring at Myrkul and rolling their eyes since a Xvart critted them 3 times in a row.
Typed too much, TLDR below
Ultimately I just think we should question the mechanics we have at this moment, and ask ourselves if they actually contribute to our character/world building. Or if they're just there as an OOC mechanic. I think the death system doesn't generate RP, and think this suggestion is well made.
I also don't think whatever exploits could come of it would be tolerated by the community. As such would likely report if they see it, as we all have done in the past.
-Paul