Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

I would like to see the visual ground effects of all spells along with the icon above the model's head removed. Making the icon generic works too. Let the combat log information on a successful spellcraft check be the only way to find out what spell was cast. I'm not suggesting to change any of the usual spell effects, mind, so you'd still be able to see all of the usual effects like displacement blur, mirror images and rocky skin. This is just aimed at the ground effects and the icon.

It would significantly lower meta knowledge. Just take zoning while stealthed or invisible as an example.

What do others think? Devs, is it doable?



Edit:

Changed topic name and tailored my suggestion to the following, and edited again for clarity. By Icons I mean the icon above the model's head when you gain or lose a spell effect, which happens upon cast, when you zone into a new area and expiration of the spell.

Lux wrote:

• • Remove the on-cast spell effect flash on the ground for all spells
  
  • Icons for all friendly spells only visible to yourself and your party
  
  • Icons for all hostile spells unaffected and thus viewable by everyone

I for one would give up my pinky toe to see this implemented.

Lux wrote:I would like to see the visual ground effects of all spells along with the icon above the model's head removed. Making the icon generic works too. Let the combat log information on a successful spellcraft check be the only way to find out what spell was cast. I'm not suggesting to change any of the usual spell effects, mind, so you'd still be able to see all of the usual effects like displacement blur, mirror images and rocky skin. This is just aimed at the ground effects and the icon.

It would significantly lower meta knowledge. Just take zoning while stealthed or invisible as an example.

What do others think? Devs, is it doable?

I think, considering you asked =)
I am not thrilled by this idea for the following reason, - Some people play on lower resolution game settings and the rings on the ground remind you "hey that person has a spell" you can not see on him because of your visual settings or your color blind and do not notice the shading on his or her toon.

Some people just can not physically see the cool affects of Stone skin or the like. Maybe your zoomed out too or not playing POV. Mostly im concerned about those who play on lower resolution or color vision issues.

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With that said... I also feel its kinda trying to hide information that is suppose to be public. Magic once in the world isnt very hidden a lot of the time. There are dozens of checks characters could make to notice affects.. could you imagine the bog on the engine? and all the text messages you would get in the combat log interrupting rp. You would waste time scrolling, not role playing, not responding, slows down everything, immersion is being broken. For what gain? I see it being far little to the damage it can cause roleplay.

If people feel its super awesome I would love to examine a character and get a list of all known affects on the character that can be deciphered by Arcane and Spot.

I deeply feel hiding affects does not add to rp.. its very in the face of the flavor of Faerun. Its a powerful magical world unlike greyhawk where powerful wizards built floating cities, gods interact with your world and brave knights battle dragons. The very flavor and lore of the game world is in your face and big. Magic is the same. Even those who practice the shadowweave have some serious in your face spells. Sorry im way off topic.


anyways. its an interesting thought =)

I'm not suggesting to remove the generic spell effects, though. You'd still see stoneskin, mage armor, shield and all those effects. My suggestion would only affect the icons above the models' heads and the ground spell effects, which are typically only a flash upon cast. Battletide is an example of an exception of that as it has a longer ground visual effect. So there would be no real change in how you would see others' PCs in your game.

What I'm after is generalising or removing icons and ground effects. The latter are clear meta giveaways when zoning stealthed or invisible and icons serve no real purpose save to notify you which spell expired.

Lux wrote:I'm not suggesting to remove the generic spell effects, though. You'd still see stoneskin, mage armor, shield and all those effects. My suggestion would only affect the icons above the models' heads and the ground spell effects, which are typically only a flash upon cast. Battletide is an example of an exception of that as it has a longer ground visual effect. So there would be no real change in how you would see others' PCs in your game.

What I'm after is generalising or removing icons and ground effects. The latter are clear meta giveaways when zoning stealthed or invisible and icons serve no real purpose save to notify you which spell expired.

When I am in a party and my pocket mage is casting buffs on me, I see icons hit me which tell me when I got buffed.. this is pretty helpful. I also see the icon appear when the buff breaks or runs out so I book it safety or hide behind my mage =P. Would removing these icons affect this? As its dire pve ability for parties and the classes less able to take a punch.

I do not have the best color vision and can not see some buffs on people, but I notice them at transitions. So.... it kinda helps me. There is no examine feature to tell you buffs in the game yet, I be more keen if that was in the game first before removing a feature.

As for meta give away,.. on zoning. I disagree a bit As moving around invisible with out triggering MS checks is meta. Till this is fixed i think a fair balance is to leave the spell affects at Zoneing till the lack of MS is adjusted. I do not think i trigger affects while stealthed and zoning.. at least not the weak buffs I have =)


I can totally get behind your idea though, and agree on all the merits if the three key issues I have are addressed. Such as seeing my icons above my models head while in party, or under hostile affect. The hostile affect ones are key to not breaking pvp in my opinion. also I love seeing the dazed one appear on me PVE because sometimes this icon doesn't show easily in my UI.

Invisibility doesnt trigger MS currently.

You can not examine people for a list of buffs on them.

I feel the current icons and ground affects make up for this very IC information. But I believe your plan is a terrific one, if we can address some of the positives it adds to the game by putting in other features.

I see your point with being buffed and seeing the icons. What if the icons were only visible to yourself and those in your party? That would enable you to see when you gain buffs and those of your party members, while keeping it private from everyone else. Ground effects can be removed but buff visuals remain useful.


I also agree that move silently should play a part when moving around invisible. Perhaps a script that gives you a short notification like:

• You hear footsteps to your left / straight ahead / slightly to your right / behind you and slightly to your left, a short/medium distance away

Lux wrote:I see your point with being buffed and seeing the icons. What if the icons were only visible to yourself and those in your party? That would enable you to see when you gain buffs and those of your party members, while keeping it private from everyone else. Ground effects can be removed but buff visuals remain useful.


I also agree that move silently should play a part when moving around invisible. Perhaps a script that gives you a short notification like:

• You hear footsteps to your left / straight ahead / slightly to your right / behind you and slightly to your left, a short/medium distance away

Regarding buff icons I totally can see that as being a very strong positive for the game. With only party being seeing. I feel like hostile buffs, should be seen regardless though. So if I am playing a cleric I know who to dispel if something hits them. Or if I am hit by one I am just not wondering "what happen?" Probably hostile should be seen by all just to prevent unforeseen game abuse.

As for invisiblity and MS, why not just give it a predator look, an ivisible icon that says "here" after all a good listen will tell you where someone is.. and a high spot according to pnp lets you see through invisbility ((i think 50, though i heard 35, can check with my books later))

But yeah I think you got a solid idea, though for fairness I wouldnt like to see it removed till some of the above is addressed. Sorta keeps one from becoming back burner with out the other.

Mallore wrote:As for meta give away,.. on zoning. I disagree a bit As moving around invisible with out triggering MS checks is meta. Till this is fixed i think a fair balance is to leave the spell affects at Zoneing till the lack of MS is adjusted. I do not think i trigger affects while stealthed and zoning.. at least not the weak buffs I have =)

Stealthed characters with high hide/ms still do trigger a transition flash when warded. Which causes metagaming issues quite a bit, I have noticed. Removing that would solve plenty of metagaming issues, and I think the invisibility one is a much smaller issue, not enough of one to prevent the transition flash from being fixed.

A single icon has no greater metagame value than the visual effect on the object, this easily an all or none proposition.

Truthiness wrote:

Mallore wrote:As for meta give away,.. on zoning. I disagree a bit As moving around invisible with out triggering MS checks is meta. Till this is fixed i think a fair balance is to leave the spell affects at Zoneing till the lack of MS is adjusted. I do not think i trigger affects while stealthed and zoning.. at least not the weak buffs I have =)

Stealthed characters with high hide/ms still do trigger a transition flash when warded. Which causes metagaming issues quite a bit, I have noticed. Removing that would solve plenty of metagaming issues, and I think the invisibility one is a much smaller issue, not enough of one to prevent the transition flash from being fixed.

Would a quick temporary fix that sorta is half way be to just remove the sound file? So you wouldn't get that loud ding when someone hit a Zone and your not even in the same zip code? I hear a mage enter an area when they are on the other end of a map sometimes.



I do think the invisibility issue is the greater of two evils. But I suppose that comes down to opinion and flavors. I also believe not seeing buffs on examine is a greater meta issue then dinging noise and light when you hit zones.

Mallore wrote:Would a quick temporary fix that sorta is half way be to just remove the sound file? So you wouldn't get that loud ding when someone hit a Zone and your not even in the same zip code? I hear a mage enter an area when they are on the other end of a map sometimes.

Creatures and audio isn't rendered/fired outside of the PC perception range. The server doesn't announce their existence to the client until they enter it.

Aspect of Sorrow wrote:

Mallore wrote:Would a quick temporary fix that sorta is half way be to just remove the sound file? So you wouldn't get that loud ding when someone hit a Zone and your not even in the same zip code? I hear a mage enter an area when they are on the other end of a map sometimes.

Creatures and audio isn't rendered/fired outside of the PC perception range. The server doesn't announce their existence to the client until they enter it.

Huh,

I have had this happen a bit in Fai, like I sorta can barely see the person, or there is that hill dip. but I hear them. Sorry for the confusion.

Normally the camera viewport doesn't extend outside the player perception range, but with Skywing's extender, you can hold the down arrow on your keyboard and rock the camera up and down with PageUp/PageDown until it escapes the boundary of the area and crashes your game client.

Wow. That is super cool in a nerdy way.


I assume this ignores then hill slopes and dips in terrain?

Obstructions modify the onperceive event.