Warsling Sniper questions

[Rudolph]

Some questions about the custom PrC for all you experts and designers:

1) Do the free Ricochet attacks deal the same damage as the original shot, including Manyshot, Sneak/Death Attacks, or any other additions?
2) If not, how is their damage calculated?
3) If they don't replicate the original shot, does their AB nevertheless include the Manyshot penalty?
4) Can a shot ricochet back and forth between two opponents or are at least four opponents needed for a shot to ricochet the maximum three times? No, 4 opponents are needed for three ricochets to happen.
5) Is there a limit to the number of ricochet shots apart from the one mentioned in the feat description (i.e. of three ricochets per regular shot)? 1 per round (alas - I overlooked that restriction in the wiki entry)
6) If a shot kills an opponent, can it still cause a ricochet to happen?
7) Do the ricochets that emerge from an attack on a flat-footed mob need to beat only their flat-footed AC or does the original shot draw the opponents into combat before the ricochets take place?

Edited in view of Chad's answers.

[chad878262]

I am not an expert on the warsling sniper and haven't tested it in the past, but noticed no one has responded so I am going to give it a shot based on what I can find from the QC forums from folks that DID test. If anyone has tested and can answer more definitively hopefully they'll swing by and correct anything I mess up too badly for you.

1) Do the free Ricochet attacks deal the same damage as the original shot, including Manyshot, Sneak/Death Attacks, or any other additions?
2) If not, how is their damage calculated?

The (improved) Ricochet shot testing comments seem to indicate that Sneak Attack Damage was applied (probably because the enemies are all flat footed), but there appear to have been mixed results and I am not sure what has been tested since the class went live. I do know that Divine Might damage only applies on the first hit, which is attentional which makes me think (though I cannot confirm) that things like Manyshot will also only apply on the first hit. Sorry, I know this is not really confirming anything. I may have some time tomorrow evening to test for you by leveling a QC character and making sure he has Manyshot and sneak damage.

3) If they don't replicate the original shot, does their AB nevertheless include the Manyshot penalty?

Yes, the Manyshot penalty will apply in addition to the -2 for the Ricochet (until you get improved, then the ricochet will not impose a penalty).

4) Can a shot ricochet back and forth between two opponents or are at least four opponents needed for a shot to ricochet the maximum three times?

No, Improved Ricochet can hit three enemies one time each, so far as I know. Unless I missed something Ricochet will hit the first enemy and a second enemy (with successful attack rolls) while Improved Ricochet will hit the first enemy, a second and then a third. There are six pages of discussion and some is rather old so this may be outdated (I didn't read the final class description). However, if the max is four that's fine, it still will not ricochet back at the original target if you have unused ricochets.

5) Is there a limit to the number of ricochet shots apart from the one mentioned in the feat description (i.e. of three ricochets per regular shot)?

I'm not sure I understand the question, but you should be able to do a ricochet shot every round, I think.

6) If a shot kills an opponent, can it still cause a ricochet to happen?

It should, but I can't say for certain.

7) Do the ricochets that emerge from an attack on a flat-footed mob need to beat only their flat-footed AC or does the original shot draw the opponents into combat before the ricochets take place?

If you are getting sneak attack damage, the opponent is flat footed.

I hope this helps a little, as I said, if no one comes to provide more definitive responses before tomorrow evening I will try running some tests to see what I come up with.

[Rudolph]

Thanks a lot, Chad. These pointers are already quite useful. I adapted the questions to them.

I do know that Divine Might damage only applies on the first hit, which is attentional which makes me think (though I cannot confirm) that things like Manyshot will also only apply on the first hit.

Too bad. Given that the class only gives one ricochet hit per round, I would have hoped for a bit more oomph. I had mistakenly thought that every attack is a ricochet hit, and designed a non-stealth powerbuild around that... It looked too OP, but with the restriction I'm no longer sure the PrC is really worth it except for flavour. The wiki refers to Ric. Shot as a 'mode' by the way. Does this mean Ric. Shot and Rapid Shot cannot be used simultaneously?

Yes, the Manyshot penalty will apply in addition to the -2 for the Ricochet (until you get improved, then the ricochet will not impose a penalty).

Acc. to the wiki the ricochet penalty is -4 and doesn't change with Impr. Ric.

[Eclypticon]

The PrC works best with stealth, sneak attacks, and death attacks. I suppose there is another viable alternative if you are up to it. A cleric WSS hierophant would be able to net you a 30 CL or above. Your cleric buffs should be able to help keep you out on the front line if you build accordingly.

On another note, it does not work with brutal throw or divine might as intended. I might look into the class again since it has been a long time since I worked with it and my memory is a bit fuzzy right now.

[Rudolph]

A cleric WSS hierophant would be able to net you a 30 CL or above. Your cleric buffs should be able to help keep you out on the front line if you build accordingly.

Yes, this is the version I have just started to try out:
http://nwn2db.com/build/?245633

Speaking of this build, at the last levelling it didn't give me the option to take Northlander Hewing even though it should qualify (it had 15 STR). What could be the reason for this?

[chad878262]

Ok, so here is what I have so far for warsling sniper

Build tested with: Rogue 8/WSS 3 /EA 3

Feats: PBS, NLH, Rapid Shot, Manyshot

Findings:

1. You can have Rapid Shot, NLH and Ricochet modes all active at the same time (and honestly with bonuses from EA and WSS the AB is still more than good enough.

2. You can activate Manyshot and it will apply with all of the above modes.

3. The Ricochet works, but it is hard to define how damage is applied (see below screenshot). I would say it is useful, regardless, but not sure if it is really working in a 'final form' long term as it's confusing to try and piece together the various damages.

4. Sneak Attack does apply on the attack out of stealth, and it appears to apply on the ricochet shot, but again, it's difficult to ascertain.

Also, just as an observation... Either Assassin or ShadowDancer is really required to make ricochet, and especially advanced ricochet useful... Mobs just generally don't spawn close enough to fire off a ricochet out of stealth, so unless you want to build a 'tanky sniper' that can stand in the midst of 4+ mobs without being hit, you need to be able to pull them, use HiPS, wait for them to bunch together, then fire off your manyshot/NLH/whatever/ricochet to hit the group. Or you need to have a tank that can hold the mobs off you so you can attack from a flank.


Screenshot of the Ricochet numbers.