Wizard/Shadowdancer

[Heimdallr]

Hello!

I have an idea of creating a typical illusion user who hides behind shadow and darkness and is an agile fighter.

What would be the best way to optimize it on BGTSCC?

Was thinking about 7 wiz for 4 lvl spells, so with some spell slot items would have pretty nice buffs, 10 SD and rest as a rogue. Is there a better combination or any must have feat, to do a sneaky as hell, illusive guy who can use weapon finesse weapons to kill in close combat?
Preferable drow.

[Eclypticon]

I'd strongly advise against not playing a full caster on this server.

My favorite combo is Wizard PM SD ASoC. I would not take any rogue dips because you will not have a full casters level to hold up against dispels. PM is simply taken to open up SD a bit earlier here and is fun RP in the underdark. I have played this build and it really shines when a drow uses it. My advice is to pick some spell school focus feats to jack up your DCs.

As an alternative to PM, you could go BM. If you need more specific examples, let me know.

A wizard EK SD is doable though if you are dead set on playing a gish, but your damage and AB will be subpar.

*edit*

[Heimdallr]

Hm yes I find dispells annoying but... I would like focus more on close combat>spells in this priority. That's why I wanted to make a rogue>sd(which as I see is boosted on BGTSCC) and caster is only to get some buffs or use simple illusions. Never wanted to have good DC. Wanted to create a typical sneaky guy that uses illusions and tricks to help himself up but is not dependant on them...the dispell will be annoying but will try to make something vs it:D
Also, isn't dispell resisted by SR? if yes drow would be a best option I think.

Atm I am worried on AC and BAB

[Eclypticon]

Spell resistance does not protect against dispel. Dex melee builds need plenty of sneak attack dice or 5 levels of swashbuckler and combat insight to do damage.

[chad878262]

If you want an 'illusionist who uses spells and is an agile fighter' you could probably just make some kind of assassin build. They get some spells such as Ghostly Visage and Greater Invisibility along with several other useful ones. If you are wanting to build a "HiPS" mage that is a different concept which relies more on either RTA's w/ Sneak damage or high DC's with HiPS as an ace in the hole.

A fun build that was pointed out to me a while back, but I won't play on this server due to a) PITA to level and b) CL25 so it get's dispelled easily... However, if you are better with timing than me, eventually it get's HiPS to avoid dispels, has decent SA damage and is the closest equivalent to the 2e F/M/T I've seen anyone come up with... You go W6/EK10/A8/AT6, or you can mix up the levels a bit, lowering EK levels for more AT or the like, but keep an eye on your BAB as you need to keep at 21 or higher or you'll lose 2 APR (assuming PTWF). I think it would be a super fun class to play, unfortunately with the dispel fix requiring CL30 to be immune (and CL25 essentially means 25% against each ward to be dispelled, which means in all likelihood somewhere around 1/3rd of your wards will be removed from a single Greater Dispel). Like I said, it could still work on the server, but it's a late bloomer and unless you have very good timing and ability to break line of site it will probably be more frustrating than it's worth.

[Heimdallr]

Hmm good to know. One thing I miss is that actually I cannot create a test character like on single player, cause of missing server features.

But to main topic, got a last question, I got a spot for one feat, from the list I got:
Combat expertise,
Power critical Dagger
Improved Critical Dagger

Which one would be good? I considered power or improved since I am not soloing most of the time, and now I started to wonder, which one of those two is more important? any advise on that?

[Wyatt]

Power critical is typically not worth taking and almost any other feat is better. The "keen" property is easily and fairly cheaply replicated for anyone without taking the feat for it.

[Calodan]

Power critical is typically not worth taking and almost any other feat is better. The "keen" property is easily and fairly cheaply replicated for anyone without taking the feat for it.

Keen is easy yes. Especially with the new master alchemist prc running around.

I think Power Critical is a very specific feat. I would take it for a WM along with Expose Weakness as then it would help to guarantee crit hits for the WM. For a WM/FB using IPA that Power Critical may be just what you need to confirm the crit.

[Deathgrowl]

Power critical is typically not worth taking and almost any other feat is better. The "keen" property is easily and fairly cheaply replicated for anyone without taking the feat for it.

Power Critical increases chance to confirm crit. It is not the same as Keen/Weapon of Impact. The feat you're referring to is Improved Critical Strike (weapon). Which can be useful if you don't have access to UMD.

Power Critical is however indeed a waste of a feat unless you have an overabundance of feats to spend (like if you are a fighter/divine champion). But not because of keen.

EDIT: However, I gather OP wants to go for sneak attacks, in which case both Keen and Power critical are practically useless.

[Wyatt]

Thanks for the clarification DG. I know what power critical does and was attempting to address both his questions about power critical dagger AND improved critical dagger. Apparently my response should have distinguished a bit better. Also, you do not need UMD to gain access to keen weapon or weapon of impact anymore with some new items available.

[Seventh Sister]

Power Critical is however indeed a waste of a feat unless you have an overabundance of feats to spend (like if you are a fighter/divine champion). But not because of keen.

I've seen this mentioned often here on the forums and I simply disagree.
If you're only focusing on how much extra damage it will provide on a regular build then you might be right, but I haven't done the math on that one so couldn't be sure.

However as with almost everything it depends on your builds strengths and strategies.
I would always take it on a WM as Critical hits is his main ability.
And if you do the math you will see that it can easily make a huge difference scaling with your damage output.

((A calculated example on the difference:))

Hidden: show

Weapon Master level 21.
AB 30 with 5 attacks against a foe with AC 30.
Doing 50 damage on a normal hit.

Attack 1: 87,5 vs 87,50 on average on each attack. No difference.
Attack 2: 80 vs 72 on average on each attack. +8 difference on every attack (not just hit).
Attack 3: 57,5 vs 49,5 on average on each attack. +8 difference on every attack.
Attack 4: 30 vs 24 on average on each attack. +6 difference on every attack.
Attack 5: 3,75 vs 2,75 on average on each attack. +1 difference on every attack.

So every round it will mean a damage increase of +23 which is +4,6 on each attack (including the dead attack 5 that drags the score down).
And you will do an extra 8,68 damage on your hits on average.
No other damage feat that I can think of comes even close to this improvement.

EDIT: Just did the math if you raise the foe to AC 35.
Exact same damage improvement per round (23) but as you will hit less your extra damage bonus on each hit will only increase and in this case to +13,14 damage on each hit.
That is a massive increase.
This of course means that if you lower the AC of the foe (compared to your AB) you will still do around 23 more damage per round but less than +8,68 per hit as you will hit more often.
TEST WITH AC 25: +22 damage/round and +6,20/hit

Another build that is perhaps even more dependant on Power Critical (Not a common build I'll admit) is a pure/semi-pure Swashbuckler build where Weakening/Wounding Criticals are key abilities.
Then you want to max out your chances to crit and Power Critical helps with that.

So I don't agree that you can simply discard the feat as being poor.
It depends totally on the build and on the right build it might even be a priority feat.

[Deathgrowl]

Your maths are a little bit off in that given WM is a high BAB class and is usually combined with other high BAB classes (fighter, for instance), 30 AB is very, very low. You won't meet anything with 30 AC until late epics anyways.

Unless you're concerned about PvP.

[Seventh Sister]

Your maths are a little bit off in that given WM is a high BAB class and is usually combined with other high BAB classes (fighter, for instance), 30 AB is very, very low. You won't meet anything with 30 AC until late epics anyways.

Unless you're concerned about PvP.

Now I can't test out your AC theory right now and that might be true.
However the AB 30 at level 21 for a Weapon Master is pretty normal given that he will often use Improved Power Attack to get his damage up (Mine does).
He actually has AB 31 at level 21 which is also why the damage part is pretty high on both him and in the example.
And I also include AC 25 in my calculations which can't be that off in epic levels.
I could make an example with AC 20 also but the point would still be pretty much the same, that the feat is very good on some builds.

[Deathgrowl]

Now I can't test out your AC theory right now and that might be true.

One of the most frequented places on the server is the Cloud Peaks. The Frost Giants are set to CR 27. The lizard folk are 23 or 25 if I recall correctly. Here are their stats, gathered some time ago with Shadow Simulacrum (though you can also find this out by simply hitting them and over time figure out how much it takes...):

http://progressionmusic.org/bg/saves/cloudpeaks.jpg

Another thing to consider is that most weapon master builds go full cheese and add in a bit of Expose Weakness, which is an AC reducer.

Also, most mobs tend to die before the WM reaches those low AB scores to worry about confirming crits.

EDIT: To be completely clear: I'm not saying Power Critical is an entirely useless feat. But it is a luxury feat. Given that the server has such a large amount of crit immune mobs and otherwise generally low AC levels, there are many feats you would pick before Power Critical.

[Seventh Sister]

Now I can't test out your AC theory right now and that might be true.

One of the most frequented places on the server is the Cloud Peaks. The Frost Giants are set to CR 27. The lizard folk are 23 or 25 if I recall correctly. Here are their stats, gathered some time ago with Shadow Simulacrum (though you can also find this out by simply hitting them and over time figure out how much it takes...):

http://progressionmusic.org/bg/saves/cloudpeaks.jpg

Another thing to consider is that most weapon master builds go full cheese and add in a bit of Expose Weakness, which is an AC reducer.

Also, most mobs tend to die before the WM reaches those low AB scores to worry about confirming crits.

EDIT: To be completely clear: I'm not saying Power Critical is an entirely useless feat. But it is a luxury feat. Given that the server has such a large amount of crit immune mobs and otherwise generally low AC levels, there are many feats you would pick before Power Critical.

Lets jump back to my initial point in all this which might have gotten lost somewhere along the way:
Power Critical CAN BE (definately not always) a very good feat on the right build.
I'm not saying the feat is good on every build, far from it.
But on the right build it can be very powerful and should be a certain pick (not a luxury pick ).
So we can't simply judge the feat in general as it's completely dependent on the build.

Now I've made some calculations that prove that with an example that fits one of my builds.
You don't agree on the AB however when you go Improved Power Attack then it's pretty close and again fits my WM build that is pretty solid.
You also discard the AC of my example even though I've made calculations with AC 25, 30 and 35 just to cover it widely.
Now I know that it varies from place to place but I think that it's pretty accurate and perhaps on the low side.
I just tested Serpent Hills that is an early Epic area and the first creature coming my way (Yuan-ti Pureblood Zealot) had AC 35.
And all the examples you show also falls into the AC 25-35 category and even closer to AC 35 which would only improve the feat.

Lets also keep in mind that while the test I did had AB 30 vs AC 25, 30 and 35 it's just the same as if I've chosen AB 35 vs AC 30, 35 and 40.
I chose AC from -5 to +5 compared to the attacking AB just to cover as many situations as possible.
I could also include -10 and +10 but it would be the same result just a bit more each way.

Then you mention Expose Weakness and that is a valid point however you then mention another build where the feat might not be useful.
And as I started saying there are builds where this feat is very good but completely agree that there are builds where it's not that useful.
And it is possible to make strong melee builds without Evasion/Expose Weakness.

But having played a WM for quite some time I can tell you that unless you face a boss you wont strike the same creature for more than max two rounds and even that is on the rare side. So that lowers the AC by 3-6 and in order to get that feat you often have to dip into a None-Full AB class which in turn lowers your AB by at least 1.
So say my carefully planned WM had dipped into Rogue for Evasion/Expose Weakness then he would at least have 1 lower AB (probably more as I would sacrifice a bonus feat from the fighter class and an epic feat for Expose Weakness. Making it (At best) AB 30 (He had AB 31 when using Improved Power Critical) vs AC 32 after the first EW and AB 30 vs AC 29 in the second round against that Yuan-ti I just ran into.
Both rounds fits into the calculations I made (and a third round would also) so it would still be a solid pick for the dipping WM as long as you do a lot of damage which I also mention in my initial post.

If your mind is made up about the feat then it's all fair and well but please at least accept the calculations I've given you (They took some time ).