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Durlag's UD connection
Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2016 12:17 am
by tfunke
The idea was that to connect it to the UD wilds#2 map, it would give that branch a connection to the surface, which the searing tunnels branch of the UD now has in Avernus.
Some people seem to like this change, others not so much.
I have no preference in the matter, but for those who interacted with this connection in the past, I can understand you may want to have it back to the Netherese ruins (+doing so will give the netherese purpose again).
Should the connection between Durlag's in the UD be to:
A) Underdark Wilds #2 (which it is now)
or
B) Netherese Ruins (as it was)
Please keep your replies short and simple.
Re: Durlag's UD connection
Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2016 12:24 am
by Akroma666
Both!
Two connections to two separate areas! Why not?!
Re: Durlag's UD connection
Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2016 12:34 am
by Tsidkenu
Why not both? Delete the current UD access point to the Netherese Maze in the illithid tunnel and move it over to the Wilds. Then everyone has to go through -all- of them!
So from surface it should be:
Durlag's -> Lava Caves -> Netherese Maze -> UD Wilds
Re: Durlag's UD connection
Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2016 1:28 am
by Endelyon
I'd like to see the connection to Durlag's restored. There has been a great deal of RP surrounding this being an access point to the Underdark. It seems strange for it to suddenly vanish as such.
Re: Durlag's UD connection
Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2016 1:41 am
by Calodan
I was not a fan of the ruins. It was nigh impossible to do. I am not a fan of making things so hard that people rarely use it to get there. Maybe the ruins should be redone by Tfunke and made into an epic area for the Upper dark!
Re: Durlag's UD connection
Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2016 2:25 am
by Valefort
As it was please, and changing the paths in the Netherese Maze would be wonderful
Re: Durlag's UD connection
Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2016 2:32 am
by NegInfinity
tfunke wrote:
Should the connection between Durlag's in the UD be to:
A) Underdark Wilds #2 (which it is now)
or
B) Netherese Ruins (as it was)
Please keep your replies short and simple.
Keep both, and keep them separate. I prefer current connection in Durlag's to what existed previously.
Given extremely low difficulty of upperdark, the previous connection to Underdark was definitely over the top (because Underdark is not on another plane of existence, as the maze implied), but the maze was a nice challenge. Current setup is much more believable and feels consistent with the realm and the lore.
Which means that the best idea would be to keep both connections. Lore is compatible with multiple connections between surface and underdark.
Basically:
Route 1 Durlag's -> Wilds
Route 2 Some other area -> Lava -> Netherese maze -> Some oher UD area.
Re: Durlag's UD connection
Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2016 5:43 am
by Storm Munin
I like the idea of having to pass both the wilds and the netherese for the transit.
More use of the wilds area that way.
Would be nice if something else could replace the netherese entrance in the illithid mine map though.
As for the netherese it were possible for any class to pass through solo, including rogue.
Soloing the netherese for grind purposes were less sane however.
Re: Durlag's UD connection
Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2016 6:20 am
by NegInfinity
Storm Munin wrote:
As for the netherese it were possible for any class to pass through solo, including rogue.
Soloing the netherese for grind purposes were less sane however.
This is definitely not true unless the ruins were nerfed after I stopped trying to get through them, or unless you're thinking of some sort of cheating strategy like running through them with sanctuary/something similar.
Try running through them with fighter 30 or any melee class (bonus points if it is not super optimal and has no umd skill). See what happens.
Usually my attempts to got through the ruins ended with unfortunate encounter with another netherese ghost (bigsby + igms spam), or with equally unfortunate encounter with sneak-attacking salamanders (roughly 50 hp damage per one hit, they could sneak up on you and I think they were dual-wielders. Meaning quick death in two rounds).
It would work as a nice challenge dungeon, but for the purposes of connecting UD and Surface its difficulty was plain insane and made absolutely no sense. It would be more fitting if you, I don't know, tried to get into treasure vault of Asmodeus y travelling through a negative energy plane followed by a short hike through far realm or something like that.
Wilds offer much more believable level of challenge.
Re: Durlag's UD connection
Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2016 7:04 am
by Storm Munin
One of the more persistent netherese solo runners in the early days were a pure 30 CON based STR14 fighter, with UMD13 granted.
Immunities, decent AC, invisibility and knowing the layout are the rogue toon's friend in there when just passing through.
The assassins were usually the culprit when my rogue bit the bullet in there.
Id argue the point of the netherese and the wilds are however to bring a party to them, just like the Illithid hive.
Not even Drizzit the pony do the surface-UD transit entirely alone, even without a netherese ruin to contend.
Elminster have done the solo a few times by now but he seriously cheats leaving one body behind to find another to finish the run.
Re: Durlag's UD connection
Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2016 7:17 am
by Blackman D
not sure the last time you went through then
by the time mar3 stopped randomizing the place all of the shadows stripped invis/ethereal, so you couldnt sneak your way thru, its anti stealth so arent hiding that way either
a good number of them teleport so its very easy to get overrun, the UMD before the dispel change is really the only thing certain classes had going for them, wouldnt hold up now tho
druids and warlocks (and maybe cleric/FS) with good AC could solo it fine, almost everyone else tho it was a death wish
Re: Durlag's UD connection
Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2016 7:52 am
by Storm Munin
run forrest, run.
Magma side invisibility helps, mostly.
I have always liked beating the odds.
Last time I ran it with a surviving rogue build were like two years ago.
Ran it with melee clerics and an FS at about the same time and it wasnt easy with them either, if for other reasons (they could usually fight their way through unless a bigby followed by knockdown spam got them).
After that some merciful person had added the translocation spells and runes were set.
Re: Durlag's UD connection
Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2016 8:02 am
by NegInfinity
I highly doubt that "any class can pass through solo" This is based on my own multiple attempts to get to through the maze. There were a lot of failed attempts.
Current conncetion to the UD through the wilds feels somewhat reasonable and is dangerous enough to deter unprepared people. Old Netherese Maze was harder than Avernus, and felt like it didn't even belong to bgtscc, due to completely ridiculous difficulty spike.
So, I'd prefer to keep current connection and maybe add new one with entrance to the old netherese maze and lava lake. Those locations were nice. Monsters there were completely ridiculous, though.
Storm Munin wrote:One of the more persistent netherese solo runners in the early days were a pure 30 CON based STR14 fighter, with UMD13 granted.
Immunities, decent AC, invisibility and knowing the layout are the rogue toon's friend in there when just passing through.
The assassins were usually the culprit when my rogue bit the bullet in there.
Id argue the point of the netherese and the wilds are however to bring a party to them, just like the Illithid hive.
Not even Drizzit the pony do the surface-UD transit entirely alone, even without a netherese ruin to contend.
Elminster have done the solo a few times by now but he seriously cheats leaving one body behind to find another to finish the run.
It is not funny. Drizzt is level 18 and would have no chance against a lot of content on the server. Elminister is level 39.
Durlag has massive penalty to hiding abilities. With mere 60 H/MS you'll be instantly spotted by pretty much anything in there, and I think to get through you'll need something above 80. Then again I heard of someone getting spotted with 87 H/mS in the new durlag's, so I think this also might be a bit too low to be reliable.
Netherese ruin has teleporting enemies, and majority of them have true seeing. That includes ALL netherese ghosts. The only blind ones are wraiths, anything else instantly spots you and swarms you if you're invisible. The dungon also has a lot of teleports and cross-level teleports strips your invisibility (and probably some wards too). If you haven't figured out your way, usually you'll end up being teleported into water, get swarmed and die.
The character I was trying to get through was level 29 at the time of retirement, and I've been trying to get through this place since level 21. No successes. It was not optimal build, but durable enough. If your "any class can pass through solo" claim were true, said character would make it through the maze.
Regardless of the lore, the level of difficulty in that place was beyond reasonable for the purpose of this area and the server. New avernus is easier than Netherese ruins were, and that probably means something.
Wilds, in comparison, offer nice tense level of difficulty. Driders there are tough and dangerous, but at least you can utilize environment against them and play it clever. In the Netherese ruins it always went like this: the moment something spots you, you have 10 enemeis trying to kill you next round regardless of where they were before.
In general, I think that for the server a character should be able to cross over from UD to Surface at level 21 in a group of one or two.
The netherese ruins were clearly meant to say, that character must be a level 50 or higher to get through the other side. It was a completely unreasonable level spike.
Storm Munin wrote:
Ran it with melee clerics and an FS at about the same time and it wasnt easy with them either, if for other reasons (they could usually fight their way through unless a bigby followed by knockdown spam got them).
That's a very different from
Storm Munin wrote:
As for the netherese it were possible for any class to pass through solo, including rogue.
don't you think?
Re: Durlag's UD connection
Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2016 8:30 am
by Valefort
Granted I played through the maze in the age of no dispel so it was easier but ... while hard it was always manageable, the monsters are powerful but nothing grossly out of proportions (even less now with the general power up of the mobs). The difficulty was more finding the path than killing monsters unless you were very unlucky.
Re: Durlag's UD connection
Posted: Fri Oct 21, 2016 8:40 am
by RamenKing
Is it really that bad to have 2-3 areas on the server where one cannot solo?
