Ranger 2H weapon style

[Akroma666]

I would like to offer the suggestion of kaedrins ranger 2H fighting style.
Valefort mentioned it was too powerful, but I fail to see why considering fighter builds or edm/am builds.
http://bgtscc.net/viewtopic.php?f=443&t ... 47#p693547

Two-Handed Style: Final Submission
Ranger Level 2: Power Attack
Ranger Level 6: Improved Power Attack
Ranger Level 11: Favored Power Attack (Selection 1)
Ranger Level 21: Favored Power Attack (Selection 2)

[Calodan]

Something that was in process of discussion from the other thread.

Yeah things like ranger 11/fighter 12/ wm 7 reach silly high numbers. I tried to look for the threads but couldn't find those easily, sorry.

What about this specifically was considered to be too powerful for the server? How does that compare to an already extreme melee powerhouse in FB 10/ WM 7/ Fighter 10/ Rogue 3?

How does it compare to the EDM builds currently on the server who are mainly casters and thusly can pretty much own the server?

How does having 2H progression effect the idea of having a Forest Master class PRC put in as well?

What effect does this bring with a Ranger/Barbarian type combo?

[AC81]

We don't compare possible new content to cheese filled powerbuilds like EDM favoured souls. They aren't the standard, that's why.

[Akroma666]

Even a fighter, frenzied berserker, edm build would be just as good.. If not better.. Am I right?

[Aelcar]

What about this specifically was considered to be too powerful for the server? How does that compare to an already extreme melee powerhouse in FB 10/ WM 7/ Fighter 10/ Rogue 3?

I wouldn't build like that. Fighter 12 is the very least, to be optimal. Rogue can be substituted by Whirling Dervish (3 to 4) for non-humans and other races without favored class fighter or rogue, as its requirements are attuned to WM's.

How does it compare to the EDM builds currently on the server who are mainly casters and thusly can pretty much own the server?

Drow (for instance) Fighter/BG/WM/FB isn't a caster, but it is an EDM build that combined with a caster can pretty much own the server harder than your "standard" solo EDM builds.

Rangers are casters, btw. In fact, it's really hard to create a non-caster in NWN2, since almost every class casts.

Even a fighter, frenzied berserker, edm build would be just as good.. If not better.. Am I right?

Not alone.

[AC81]

Even a fighter, frenzied berserker, edm build would be just as good.. If not better.. Am I right?

True, but again, devs and QC don't balance according to PB's. Ranger is already an extremely well-balanced class. Why change that?

[Valefort]

You would also see some F 12/ ranger 11 / dwarven defender 7 or F 12/ ranger 11/ AK 7

Also : ranger 30 guys, I heard they can deal a fair amount of damage !

It opens up a bunch of powerbuilds which we could really do without. Rangers don't need help so don't do anything that boost them or we fall in power creep again.

[Valefort]

To be clearer on the F 12 / Ranger 11 / WM 7 here is one possible version :

http://nwn2db.com/build/?254043

You'll see a relatively unused feat : favored power attack.

This build will perform as well as a F 12 / FB 5 / WM 7/ rogue 4 powerbuild against anything (which in itself is already problematic).

Now let's see how it fares against his favored enemies :

Damage : 2d4 (base) + 4 (EB) + 8 (fighter feats) + 15 (STR mod *1.5) + 30 (enhanced power attack against favored enemy, see here) + 3 (favored enemy damage bonus)= 2d4+60 ~ 65 damage per hit, with a +4 falchion.

Crits on 13-20, for triple the damage, 195 damage on a crit (and that's not the best weapon this build can use). Is that clear now ?

[Akroma666]

I see it clearly, but do remember the rules of the forum, you are here to promote the idea and how to make it work.

Personally I see nothing wrong with your build. Simplier way of building a common build. And that's only when you burn feats and have favored enemies.
I've seen those weaponmaster scythe builds go up to 400dmg crits easily. I imagine this will be the same, but come on.. If we can already do it, and do it better. What's wrong with giving rangers the ability to do so? Its already an underplayed class compared to fighter-anything.
I understand the whole power creep fear.. But if the build can already be done by other means, why not allow a build to meet those same means via balance by adding this option?

[Valefort]

The rules say no such things Akroma, I'm explaining the consequences of this suggestion and it's quite within the rules. You can tweak your suggestion according to the info gathered easily enough to make the discussion go forward.

Ranger is not an underplayed class at all, also a WM/FB is not a common build but a powerbuild. And btw if you go scythe instead of falchion you'll get 67 *5 ~ 342

400 damage crit, even with a scythe means 80 base damage .. hardly anything normal it's extremely high (i'm curious about the build that does that btw).

How is making 200 damage with high AB not wrong ? It's very very very very wrong (enter more very).

How would you build the same thing without ranger two-handed style ?

You would need to get ranger and frenzied berserker levels, FB has important requirements : power attack, cleave, great cleave. Three feats you have to pick and since you'll have some AB issues you'll want to add some fighter levels to make up for it. fighter 12 / FB 5 / ranger 10 / AK 3 is the first split that comes to my mind to profit from favored power attack.

But obviously you don't get WM levels and so this build doesn't reach crazy numbers. If you really want to cram WM in you can try to go for fighter 8 / ranger 10 / FB 5 / WM 7 like this :

http://nwn2db.com/build/?254050

As you can see it manages to get everything important in but no improved crit, no steadfast and less damage, especially against non favored enemies.

Also I didn't thought about it at first but you can also go the EDM way on top of it all, like this : http://nwn2db.com/build/?254053

[Ambaryerno]

And Improved Crit can be made up for by getting Keen on your weapon.

[Akroma666]

Comparing this to a power build does not show in any way that this shouldn't be allowed. Again, if the power creep doesn't move, and it just matches an already existing build, why are we arguing it shouldn't be allowed? Because its easier to obtain?

To avoid breaking rule #2 I'm going to leave your argument alone for now and focus on my suggestion.

Rangers get twf and ranged bonuses, what about 2H weapons? It should be a viable option to allow rangers to use power attack on some 2H weapons.

[mrm3ntalist]

How much damage 2hander rangers do ( at level30)? Does it need improvement?

[Akroma666]

How much damage 2hander rangers do ( at level30)? Does it need improvement?

From what I was told, its not even an option for fighting style. So to answer your questions: bad, yes.

[mrm3ntalist]

How much damage 2hander rangers do ( at level30)? Does it need improvement?

From what I was told, its not even an option for fighting style.

They can use weapons two handed though, cant they?