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DEX 2Her - Master of the Longsword

Posted: Wed Oct 26, 2016 6:35 pm
by Ambaryerno
So this is something I came up with not long ago while discussing the Weapon Master PrC on another forum. One thing that's long irked me about DnD is that having studied Western Martial Arts, many of the ways it implements weapons and armor makes my eye twitch, so I wanted to come up with a class that would reflect WMA using NWN2 mechanics. You also never really hear of a DEX-based 2Her since DnD ties so much to STR. So this is what I came up with.

The central concepts are:

1) Something that incorporates elements of Western Martial Arts into a Class (mostly based on Liechtenauer).

2) DEX and Skill-based 2Her Hit Machine. It's a bit of a glass cannon, and loses a good bit of damage per attack. Especially because many of the abilities are used from Measured Blows with that -3 damage penalty, along with losing out on the Weapon Spec feats. However it makes up for this at very high levels with the ability to hit a LOT (especially once the extra attacks per round come into play).

3) Some spawn/crowd-control capability.

4) Requires a high investment in Skills and leveling. It's not going to multiclass well, as a lot of the best bonuses start coming into play at higher levels.

5) It's both more flexible than the Fighter in some ways, yet also more restricted. Its flexibility comes in allowing Weapon Focus, etc. to apply across multiple weapons, enabling the class to effectively use a much wider array of gear at a high level of effectiveness (IE if you find a REALLY awesome halberd, even if you're Focused/Improve Crit'ed on a bastard sword those bonuses apply to the halberd through Weapon Synergy). By contrast the Fighter (or the current Fighter/WM) tend to get very specialized in their equipment. OTOH, the Fighter has much more varied build options via the use of shields, dual-wielding, and Bonus Feats.

Note that I wrote this up on a server where many classes have feats nearly every level (IE Kaedrin's Fighter).
Hidden: show
Master of the Longsword
The Master of the Longsword is the consumate master of arms. Unlike the Fighter, who is a generalist in the arts of war, the Master of the Longsword focuses on a specific school of combat centered around the two-handed sword, polearm, and dagger. His combat style is quick and direct, focusing on accuracy and skill over raw power, enabling him to wield even greatswords and halberds with deftness and subtlety. He eschews the shield or an off-hand weapon, and relies on his skills for defense. Additionally, his training allows him to counter heavy armor by exploiting the gaps and joints between the plates, and striking at the body beneath.

Hit Dice: D8
BAB: High

Weapons: Simple, Martial
Armor: Light, Medium

High: Reflex
Low: Fort

Skill Points: 5
Class Skills: Bluff, Concentration, Craft Weapon, Intimidate, Lore, Parry, Spot, Taunt, Tumble

Note: This class does NOT qualify as Fighter levels for Feat purposes

Level 1 Weapons of Choice
Level 2 Weapon Synergy I
Level 3 Bonus Feat
Level 4 Feint
Level 5 Measured Blows I
Level 6 Disarm
Level 7 Skillfull Defense
Level 8 Bonus Feat
Level 9 One With The Blade
Level 10 Scholar of Arms
Level 11 Harness Fighting I
Level 12 Disabling Blow
Level 13 Vor
Level 14 Wrestling at Sword I
Level 15 Multifighting I
Level 16 Coup-de-Gras I
Level 17 Weapon Synergy II
Level 18 Harness Fighting II
Level 19 Wrestling at Sword II
Level 20 Provost of Arms
Level 21 Nach
Level 22 Coup-de-Gras II
Level 23 Aggressive Defender
Level 24 Chink in the Armor
Level 25 Master's Defense
Level 26 Measured Blows II
Level 27 Harness Fighting III
Level 28 Multifighting II
Level 29 Weapon Synergy III
Level 30 Master of Arms

Feat Descriptions

Weapons of Choice: At Level 1 the Master of the Longsword receives Weapons of Choice applying to two-handed swords, (any sword or sword-like weapon wielded in two hands, including longswords, falchions, scimitars, etc.) polearms, and daggers.

Weapon Synergy: At Level 2 the Master of the Longsword may wield any sword or sword-like weapon (IE bastard sword and katana) and polearm, even if he lacks the proficiency feat for it as long as he does so two-handed. At Level 17, he has undertaken sufficient study that he has discovered the similarities in how his weapons are wielded, and may apply any bonuses from Weapon Focus, Power Critical, or Improved Critical feats to all of his Weapons of Choice (note: taking feats in more than one qualifying weapon does not stack). At Level 29, he may apply 1/2 his AB bonus from these feats to any melee weapon he is has proficiency for, however bonuses for AC, Power Critical, etc. do NOT apply outside his Weapons of Choice.

Bonus Feat: At Levels 3 and 8 the Master of the Longsword receives a bonus feat.

Feint: At Level 4 the Master of the Longsword receives the Feint feat for free, even if he doesn't meet the requirements.

Measured Blows: At Level 5, he gains the ability to focus on making precise attacks. By tightening up his movements and making smaller, quicker strikes he gains +3 AB at the expense of -3 Damage. At Level 26 he gains an extra attack per round for every 10 ranks of Concentration when fighting in this mode.

Disarm: At Level 6 the Master of the Longsword receives the Disarm feat for free, even if he doesn't meet the requirements.

Skillful Defense: At Level 7, the Master of the Longsword has learned to defend himself with his weapons as if they were a shield in melee combat. He gains +1 AC (Shield) for every 10 ranks of Parry when fighting in Measured Blows. This bonus increases to +2 per 10 ranks if he takes the Improved Parry feat. This only applies against melee weapons.

One With The Blade: At Level 9 the Master of the Longsword has achieved sufficient mastery with his weapons they have effectively become an extension of his body. He may therefore use his DEX for calculating AB when wielding any of his Weapons of Choice, even if the weapon would ordinarily not qualify for Weapon Finesse.

Student of Arms: The Master of the Longsword's knowledge of weapons lends him an intuitive grasp of their inherent properties, granting him bonuses in his skill at wielding his Weapons of Choice. At levels 10, 20, and 30 the Master of the Longsword gains 1 point to AB for every 10 ranks of Craft Weapon. The bonus per 10 ranks is +1 at Level 10, +2 at Level 20, and +3 at Level 30.

Harness Fighting : Beginning at Level 11, the Master of the Longsword may wear Full or Half-Plate as if it were Medium Armor. In addition, at Levels 18 and 27 the Armor Check penalty is reduced by 1, and his Maximum Dex bonus to AC is increased by 1 up to a maximum of 2. If he takes the Mobility feat these bonuses are doubled. This applies only when wearing Full or Half-Plate armor, and does stack with Mithral armor.

Disabling Blow: At Level 12 he may, as a full round action, make an attack that cripples his opponent and reduces their AB, Damage, and movement speed for a number of rounds equal to 1/2 the Master of the Longsword's level. A successful Fort save reduces this by 1/2. This attack requires a concentration check.

Vor: The Master of the Longsword's unrelenting assault when he has the initiative keeps his opponent off-balance and forces them to react to him. As a result, When the Master of the Longsword has the Initiative, the DC for Concentration Checks for any spells and abilities used by the opponent when engaged in melee combat are increased by 1/2 the Master's level. Additionally, once per five rounds the opponent must make a successful Concentration Check against the Master of the Longsword's full AB, or lose half his attacks per round. This advantage is lost if the Master of the Longsword is Knocked Down or suffers a mental status effect (Dazed, Stunned, Etc.).

Wrestling at Sword: At Level 14 the Master of the Longsword may attempt to enter grappling range with the opponent, and makes a check at his full BAB against his target's AC. If successful, his opponent is thrown to the ground, and he delivers an attack at max damage. At Level 19 if he is Knocked Down by an opponent, a successful Tumble check negates the knockdown.

Multifighting: The Master of the Longsword has learned to divide his attention between multiple targets simultaneously. At Level 15 When fighting in Measured Blows he will divide his attacks per round to all targets within melee range. For example, if he has six attacks per round, and is fighting two opponents, he will execute three attacks against each opponent. If a third opponent enters the fight, he will make two attacks against each opponent. This continues until he has more enemies than attacks (IE at six attacks per round, but fighting seven opponents in melee range, he will attack six opponents once, while the seventh goes unengaged). At Level 28, opponents no longer gain their AB bonus against him when flanking him.

Coup-de-Gras: At Level 16 the attack delivered by Wrestling at Arms is upgraded to an automatic Critical with a modifier of X2. At Level 22 this is upgraded even further by granting +1 to the Critical Multiplier. If the Master of the Longsword has a dagger in his inventory the Critical Multiplier during a Coup-de-Gras increases by a further +1 at both levels.

Nach: The Master of the Longsword executes an attack which enables him to take control of the fight. At Level 21, as a Full Round Action, the Master of the Longsword makes an attack at his full BAB. If the attack is successful, the Master of the Longsword gains Initiative over that target for the duration of the fight, and Vor (see above) will apply as if he had Initiative from the beginning.

Aggressive Defender: At Level 23 the Master of the Longsword is constantly moving his weapon, ready to intercept any incoming blow even when he's attacking. Whenever using Measured Blows, he will automatically attempt to Parry attacks that beat his AC. He doesn't receive a Riposte attack, but can still attack as normal.

Chink in the Armor: At Level 24 the Master of the Longsword has learned to spot and target the weaknesses in his opponent's armor. Whenever fighting in Measured Blows, he gains an additional +1 AB against opponents wearing Full or Half-Plate armor for every 10 ranks of Spot.

Master's Defense: At Level 25, the Master of the Longsword may add his weapon's Enhancement Bonus as AC (Shield). This bonus stacks with his bonus for Skillfull Defense, and only applies against melee attacks.
Note this is a VERY early draft that hasn't been through any sort of balance pass or critique yet.

Re: DEX 2Her - Master of the Longsword

Posted: Thu Oct 27, 2016 8:38 pm
by Ambaryerno
Critiques? Thoughts? Suggestions?

Re: DEX 2Her - Master of the Longsword

Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2016 3:32 pm
by Ambaryerno
Bueller? Bueller?

Re: DEX 2Her - Master of the Longsword

Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2016 4:21 pm
by chad878262
A lot of these abilities seem rather difficult to implement in the NWN2 engine, though I am not a modder so maybe I'm wrong...

Granting a bonus 3 APR is a big no go... Giving 9 APR to a High BAB class, 10 with haste??? that's crazy talk.

I don't see this as a DEX build... At most you maybe go Dex 13 w/ a +3 item to try for MFP... Could also just go DEX 12 and either take 3 levels in a class to gain heavy armor for full plate or, I suppose pump DEX to 17 for Mithral Breastplate. With the recent armor changes you could even obtain Mithral Half-plate or Mithral Banded Mail which is much easier than MFP and it would only cost 1 AC...

Granting weapon synergy to give a bunch of weapon focused feats across multiple weapons is paramount to exponentially giving free feats which is also a no go IMO.

Measured Blows - I don't necessarily see an issue with the +3 AB/-3 damage part, so long as it can't be activated alongside Power Attack / IPA which would equate to free bonuses with no expense to damage since using a weapon in two hands doubles the PA bonus damage, thus your AB would nullify the penalty while the damage penalty would only nullify half of the damage bonus from PA. However, granting up to 3 bonus attacks per round is hugely OP in my opinion... Monks greater flurry gives 2 bonus attacks at highest AB on a MEDIUM BAB class... This ability would grant 9 APR on a High AB class, 10 with haste. It's taking away the whole benefit of two weapon fighting, which is already generally not as good as fighting with weapon/shield or a two handed weapon.

Pretty sure something like skillful defense already exists for the Duelist class.

One with the blade...Ok, but honestly based on the other abilities in the class you are still better off minimizing DEX at somewhere between 12-17 and maxing STR... Too many enemies with DR so you need damage on this server.

Student of Arms...AB for points in craft weapon? no.

Harness Fighting... I don't think it would be possible to implement. In addition, it removes one of the negatives of taking the class (no heavy armor proficiency)... Would be better to give them Medium Armor Supremacy (or is it mastery, I forget...) The feat already exists, but doesn't give as much benefit. In addition, doubling the bonuses essentially makes regular full plate better than mithral full plate. overpowered IMO.

Disabling Blow...at 12th level they get an ability that reduces AB, damage and movement even on a successful save? nope. At best it should be no penalty on a successful save. Also what is the concentration check for? How is the DC set for the fort save?

Vor: Up to a 15 penalty on concentration checks? no, this is better than the penalty a dissonant chord can apply. (I think they cap out on a concentration penalty of 7 IIRC)

Wrestling at Sword: Level 14 gets an ability that is better than Improved knockdown (offering no opponent strength check) and he is able to get a second chance to avoid knockdown? (STR Check and Tumble check) again, no can do here. Maybe just give the Knockdown/Improved Knockdown as bonus feats...or perhaps if possible allow the DEX score to be used in place of STR when making a KD/IKD check.

Multifighting: Pretty sure can't be implemented... Maybe give them the whirlwind feat?

Coup-de-gras: no...free crit for an already stated OP feat that replaces an existing mechanic with one that has no counter-play for the opponent.

Nach: Not sure how to implement and if it would have any in game impact since initiative is very wonky in the NWN2 engine.

Aggressive Defender: OP...Uses AC first, then gets a parry check for any attack that get's through AC. Not even sure it would be possible to implement, but very OP, especially with no loss to APR.

Chink in the armor: All these bonuses for skills alongside giving a High BAB class with loads of feats 5 skill points per level is really OP... a human with 14 INT is going to have 8 SP per level and can max all of these now combat / mechanically beneficial skills.. again, this is a no.

Master's Defense: Now we are giving the class +4 shield AC for having a +4 EB weapon being wielded in two hands... I would maybe be ok if we said half the EB since there is at least a rapier that gives +3 shield AC, but no more than that. You are gaining 1.5 x STR for wielding a two handed weapon which is supposed to be at the expense of AC... If you want +4 shield AC spend the money to get a wand IMO (or 1/day item from epic merchant).


Sorry, being brutally honest since you asked for feedback, but there are a few cardinal rules you've broken, to name what I can see off hand:

1. Don't give abilities that overpower already existing abilities (such as a knockdown that is better than improved knockdown).

2. Don't give abilities that have no counter-play (such as no save knockdown and no save reductions in AB/Damage/Movement even on successful save, though the no save knockdown is more egregious).

3. Don't give abilities that set the class above existing base classes (i.e. having 30 concentration at level 26 allows 9 attacks per round where a monk with greater flurry can only hit 7 or 12 if dual wielding).

4. Make sure the class has weaknesses. You give this class abilities that essentially undo the weaknesses it is supposed to have... It gets tons of attacks, bonuses to AC and can generally deal with the lower damage since there is nothing in the class that really FORCES it to focus on DEX. Plus without very careful coding it can exploit a lot of the abilities and get damage from IPA with less penalty due to tons of bonuses to AB as well as an ability that circumvents half of the IPA penalty.

Overall I really don't know what to say to make it better... I personally think you should start from scratch and give it abilities that really focus on the DEX aspect. Maybe give it something like Combat Insight to use INT for damage to stand in for being able to strike at the chinks in armor... I just think the abilities need to be thought out and considered against existing content because a lot of this would require way to much effort to implement and be quite OP, but by replacing the abilities with existing content as far as feats and class abilities would probably balance it better and be easier to implement.

Re: DEX 2Her - Master of the Longsword

Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2016 5:39 pm
by Ambaryerno
First of all, as I said in the OP this was a (mostly) direct copy of a concept I posted for another server, so there's probably things that would work there that need tweaking.
Granting weapon synergy to give a bunch of weapon focused feats across multiple weapons is paramount to exponentially giving free feats which is also a no go IMO.
Can leave it at JUST the swords wielded 2H and polearms. Eliminate the high-level buff that allows it to apply AB bonuses across the board.
Measured Blows - I don't necessarily see an issue with the +3 AB/-3 damage part, so long as it can't be activated alongside Power Attack / IPA which would equate to free bonuses with no expense to damage since using a weapon in two hands doubles the PA bonus damage, thus your AB would nullify the penalty while the damage penalty would only nullify half of the damage bonus from PA. However, granting up to 3 bonus attacks per round is hugely OP in my opinion... Monks greater flurry gives 2 bonus attacks at highest AB on a MEDIUM BAB class... This ability would grant 9 APR on a High AB class, 10 with haste. It's taking away the whole benefit of two weapon fighting, which is already generally not as good as fighting with weapon/shield or a two handed weapon.
I've thought of several ways the address the attacks per round. IE one was to have a modifier feat that can be taken at level up, "Improved Measured Blows" which grants X bonus attacks, but also requires a high DEX (that would address the problem of nothing really forcing high DEX on the character). The actual number of attacks can be tweaked.

And yes, I intended this to be a mode to prevent activating it and PA.
Student of Arms...AB for points in craft weapon? no.
I would have preferred Lore, but on the server I designed it for they were using the straight Lore skill, which was far too general. And here there's no "Lore: Weapons and Armor." Although if they wanted to ADD that as a Lore option that would work.
Harness Fighting... I don't think it would be possible to implement. In addition, it removes one of the negatives of taking the class (no heavy armor proficiency)... Would be better to give them Medium Armor Supremacy (or is it mastery, I forget...) The feat already exists, but doesn't give as much benefit. In addition, doubling the bonuses essentially makes regular full plate better than mithral full plate. overpowered IMO.
Alternative: Make it a feat that can be taken separately at level up, with a high DEX requirement.
Disabling Blow...at 12th level they get an ability that reduces AB, damage and movement even on a successful save? nope. At best it should be no penalty on a successful save. Also what is the concentration check for? How is the DC set for the fort save?
I'm fine with Fort Save negates penalty. Hadn't determined exactly how the Fort DC would be set, though it would likely be connected to the attacker's AB. The Concentration Check would be because it's an attack that requires precision targeting, (think of it as a schnitt to the wrists or back of the knee) therefore a good deal of focus is needed to land it.
Vor: Up to a 15 penalty on concentration checks? no, this is better than the penalty a dissonant chord can apply. (I think they cap out on a concentration penalty of 7 IIRC)
Alternative: DC increases +1 per X Levels.
Wrestling at Sword: Level 14 gets an ability that is better than Improved knockdown (offering no opponent strength check) and he is able to get a second chance to avoid knockdown? (STR Check and Tumble check) again, no can do here. Maybe just give the Knockdown/Improved Knockdown as bonus feats...or perhaps if possible allow the DEX score to be used in place of STR when making a KD/IKD check.
Alternative: Master makes a DEX check opposed by the higher of his opponent's STR or DEX. Could also modify that failing the check causes the MASTER to get KD'ed.

The second chance vs. KD bonus could also be made a feat available at level up, again with a high DEX requirement. OR the second chance could instead eliminate the penalty for failing the WAS attempt.
Multifighting: Pretty sure can't be implemented... Maybe give them the whirlwind feat?
I can count on one hand how many times I've ACTUALLY used WW when having to take it as a prereq for Weapon Master. Unless a feat could be made available on level up (again, with a DEX requirement) to increase the number of attacks per target
Coup-de-gras: no...free crit for an already stated OP feat that replaces an existing mechanic with one that has no counter-play for the opponent.
See modification to Wrestling at Sword.
Nach: Not sure how to implement and if it would have any in game impact since initiative is very wonky in the NWN2 engine.
Part of the idea was to MAKE Initiative actually mean something.
Aggressive Defender: OP...Uses AC first, then gets a parry check for any attack that get's through AC. Not even sure it would be possible to implement, but very OP, especially with no loss to APR.
Theoretically this IS possible to implement, as I've seen it done (though with % dice). Though at least one was an E8 server so no idea how it would be affected by flurries. It's possible it might be affected the same way, so at least it only counters half of each flurry rather than every attack.

Alternative to the roll itself would be to use a % dice as above, with Parry only providing +X% bonus.
Chink in the armor: All these bonuses for skills alongside giving a High BAB class with loads of feats 5 skill points per level is really OP... a human with 14 INT is going to have 8 SP per level and can max all of these now combat / mechanically beneficial skills.. again, this is a no.
Trying to find something unique to do with skills in a combat-focused class. Class SP/Level be adjusted.
Master's Defense: Now we are giving the class +4 shield AC for having a +4 EB weapon being wielded in two hands... I would maybe be ok if we said half the EB since there is at least a rapier that gives +3 shield AC, but no more than that. You are gaining 1.5 x STR for wielding a two handed weapon which is supposed to be at the expense of AC... If you want +4 shield AC spend the money to get a wand IMO (or 1/day item from epic merchant).
Actual +AC bonus is negotiable. At the time I was writing this up I was building it against Kaedrin Fighter, which gets a TON of AB/AC bonuses.

As for ways to encourage building DEX:

One option would be to restrict to Light Armor only (with Harness Fighting as the exception, but made a higher level feat available at level up) so high DEX would be necessary just to avoid getting clobbered.

At one point I DID have it set up to use DEX for damage as one of the high level feats ("Deadly Accuracy") but felt that having DEX control all three combat stats would have been a bit too much. Though I suppose that could be an Epic-level feat with a stiff (like, 25+) DEX requirement.

Re: DEX 2Her - Master of the Longsword

Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2016 5:59 pm
by chad878262
Fair enough. Maybe make some adjustments and post again and we can look at them. There is a lot of content on the back burner so the less customization needed the better. I think that perhaps the knockdown stuff should instead over the course of levels grant Knockdown, use DEX mod instead of STR for KD, then grant IKD, using DEX instead of STR. This would, IMO be easier then making a new mechanic since you only have to take the existing feats and script to use the DEX modifier instead of STR modifier on the KD check. The counter-play mechanic for KD already exists so that part is also taken care of.

For the disabling blow I would get ride of the concentration check as it's too much going on... Just make it have a duration of 1 round per 3 class levels (max 1 min at level 30 if no other classes) with a cooldown of 2 minutes. Set the DC to 10 + 1/2 class level + 1/2 DEX mod (or something similar)... so if you get up to a +10 dex mod at level 30 with no multi-class you have a DC 30 against fort save.

I really don't agree with giving them extra attacks, and I doubt this would make it through. They are two handed weapon fighters and should not gain the benefit of two weapon fighters. However, if going this route I would suggest making it act something like flurry...i.e. when wearing medium armor or lighter and using specific weapons you get 1 bonus attack at highest AB at the cost of -2 to all attacks... then give an improved version that gives a second bonus attack and lessons the cost to -1 AB or does away with the penalty. again, this would allow (I think) using an existing mechanic (flurry/improved/greater) and modifying it as opposed to creating something wholly new and requiring far more scripting/coding and with a higher likelihood of failing once it's testing and requiring rework. The more time consuming it is to make, the less likely it is to ever be considered.

I'll let you look over the rest of the abilities and as I said, I'm really not trying to dissuade you, just provide useful feedback that might make a scripter/dev consider taking a look at it which will then trigger discussion of the class in QC. If none of the dev's want to work on something there is little reason for QC to review it, after all. I don't make any of these decisions, but if you think about it, the folks that do probably prefer to take on projects that won't get shot down for being too powerful and won't cause them to pull their hair out when they are trying to write the code/scripts/whatever to make the class work.

:mrgreen:

Re: DEX 2Her - Master of the Longsword

Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2016 6:18 pm
by Ambaryerno
I'll take a look at implementing some of these changes into the description

The problem with KD/IKD is that it doesn't completely fit what I'm trying to represent with Wrestling at Sword. The concept of WaS in WMA isn't just putting the guy on the ground. It's you put the guy on the ground and stick him at the same time (thus the Coup-de-Gras modifier: Base level you stick him when he hits the ground. With CdG you stick him somewhere sensitive. And if you have a dagger-class weapon you REALLY stick him).

This is already a bit of a simplification, because I'm pretty sure the Devs aren't going to want to try working grappling into the engine...

Flurry of Blows/Greater Flurry but modified to allow this class's weapons could work. I'd still want to tie it into the Measured Blows, and maybe instead of sacrificing AB it sacrifices additional damage (so Measured Blows with the first FoB you gain + 3 AB, +1 attack, but -5 damage. GFoB nets a second attack, while increasing damage penalty to -6. Unlike Monk FoB, the penalty is NOT reduced by level).

Another potential thought on Harness Fighting:

Limit the Master to Light Armor, then give him a "Style" selection: he can either choose Harness Fighting, in which case Full and Half Plate armors are considered Light armor for him. OR he can select "Bare Fighting," in which case he can, say, add 1.5* his DEX bonus to AC, or some other such effect. The Feat progression could possibly be varied depending on this selection.

Re: DEX 2Her - Master of the Longsword

Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2016 6:49 pm
by chad878262
You can put lore into the description while still using the kd description and maybe giving a bonus to damage on prone enemies.

Careful with all the negative damage modifiers. Most enemies on this server don't have really high AC, but many have damage resistance...this is why few people play low STR melee types with sneak our some other damage bonus. If damage is too low the class becomes worthless unless it can tank with really high AC and/or resistances.

I doubt heavy armor would be ok to treat as light.

Re: DEX 2Her - Master of the Longsword

Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2016 7:14 pm
by Ambaryerno
One thing I just thought of is that Coup de Gras could be a separate activated ability. Make it a standard action with a cooldown at full ABA. It can only be done against a prone target, but if the attack connects it's a Critical, with the multipliers as in the original concept. The cooldown would then prevent it from being spammed. This would then fit into the idea of a damage bonus on prone targets.

The negative damage modifiers is part of why I also want to keep the Weapon Synergy. Besides the fact it's one of those reflections of WMA that's part of the class concept (DND has a ridiculous level of specialization you don't see in actual martial arts. One reason I like games like TES and Mount and Blade where you "use it to build it") it would make paying attention to damage type vs. DR much less painful (IE for Fighters, does it REALLY become worthwhile switching to a Bludgeon when your Slashing doesn't work, if you're still losing a bunch of damage from Weapon Specialization anyway?).

Re: DEX 2Her - Master of the Longsword

Posted: Wed Nov 02, 2016 8:42 pm
by Ambaryerno
Ok, revision number one:
Hidden: show
Hit Dice: D8
BAB: High

Weapons: Simple, Martial
Armor: Light

High: Reflex
Low: Fort

Skill Points: 3
Class Skills: Bluff, Intimidate, Lore: History, Lore: Local, Lore: Martial (New Skill), Parry, Spot, Taunt, Tumble

Note: This class does NOT qualify as Fighter levels for Feat purposes

Level 1 Weapons of Choice
Level 2 Weapon Synergy I
Level 3 Feint
Level 4
Level 5 Measured Blows I
Level 6 Disarm
Level 7 Skillfull Defense
Level 8 One With The Blade
Level 9
Level 10 Scholar of Arms
Level 11
Level 12 Disabling Blow
Level 13 Vor
Level 14 Wrestling at Sword I
Level 15 Flurry of Blows I (Master of the Longsword)
Level 16 Coup-de-Gras I
Level 17 Weapon Synergy II
Level 18
Level 19 Harness Fighting/Bare Fighting
Level 20 Provost of Arms
Level 21 Nach
Level 22 Coup-de-Gras II
Level 23
Level 24 Aggressive Defender
Level 25 Chink in the Armor
Level 26
Level 27 Master's Defense
Level 28
Level 29 Flury of Blows II (Master of the Longsword)
Level 30 Master of Arms

Feat Descriptions

Weapons of Choice: At Level 1 the Master of the Longsword receives Weapons of Choice applying to two-handed swords, (any sword or sword-like weapon wielded in two hands, including longswords, falchions, scimitars, etc.) polearms, and daggers.

Weapon Synergy: At Level 2 the Master of the Longsword may wield any sword or sword-like weapon (IE bastard sword and katana) and polearm, even if he lacks the proficiency feat for it as long as he does so two-handed. At Level 17, he has undertaken sufficient study that he has discovered the similarities in how his weapons are wielded, and may apply any bonuses from Weapon Focus, Power Critical, or Improved Critical feats to all of his Weapons of Choice (note: taking feats in more than one qualifying weapon does not stack).

Feint: At Level 3 the Master of the Longsword receives the Feint feat for free, even if he doesn't meet the requirements.

Measured Blows: At Level 5, he gains the ability to focus on making precise attacks when wielding one of his Weapons of Choice By tightening up his movements and making smaller and quicker strikes. When this mode is activated, he gains +3 AB at the expense of -3 Damage.

Disarm: At Level 6 the Master of the Longsword receives the Disarm feat for free, even if he doesn't meet the requirements.

Skillful Defense: At Level 7, the Master of the Longsword has learned to defend himself with his weapons as if they were a shield in melee combat. He gains +1 AC (Shield) for every 6 ranks of Parry when fighting in Measured Blows. This only applies against melee weapons.

One With The Blade: At Level 8 the Master of the Longsword has achieved sufficient mastery with his weapons they have effectively become an extension of his body. He may therefore use his DEX for calculating AB when wielding any of his Weapons of Choice, even if the weapon would ordinarily not qualify for Weapon Finesse.

Student of Arms: The Master of the Longsword's knowledge of weapons lends him an intuitive grasp of their inherent properties, granting him bonuses in his skill at wielding his Weapons of Choice. At levels 10, 20, and 30 the Master of the Longsword gains 1 point to AB for every 10 ranks of Lore: Martial (New Skill). The bonus per 10 ranks is +1 at Level 10, +2 at Level 20, and +3 at Level 30.

Disabling Blow: At Level 12 he may, as a full round action, make an attack that cripples his opponent and reduces their AB, Damage, and movement speed for a number of rounds equal to 1 round per three class levels. The target must make a Fort Save with a DC of 10 + 1/2 the Master's class level + 1/2 his DEX modifier, and has a cool down of 2 minutes.

Vor: At Level 13 the Master of the Longsword's unrelenting assault when he has the initiative keeps his opponent off-balance and forces them to react to him. As a result, When the Master of the Longsword has the Initiative, the DC for Concentration Checks for any spells and abilities used by the opponent when engaged in melee combat are increased by 1 for every 5 class levels. This advantage is lost if the Master of the Longsword is Knocked Down or suffers a mental status effect (Dazed, Stunned, Etc.).

Wrestling at Sword: At Level 14 the Master of the Longsword may attempt to enter grappling range with the opponent and throw them to the ground. The check is performed the same as Knockdown, only substituting the Master's DEX modifier in place of Strength. Additionally, he gains +1d4 damage (type matching his weapon) against prone opponents.

Flurry of Blows (Master of the Longsword): At Level 15, the Master of the Longsword gains an extra attack per round whenever fighting in Measured Blows using one of his Weapons of Choice. This extra attack comes at the expense of an additional -2 damage. At Level 29 he gains another attack.

Coup-de-Gras: At Level 16, as a standard action the Master may deliver an attack against a prone opponent at his full BAB If the attack is successful the hit is an automatic Critical with a modifier of X2. At Level 22 this is upgraded even further by granting +1 to the Critical Multiplier. If the Master of the Longsword has a dagger in his inventory the Critical Multiplier during a Coup-de-Gras increases by a further +1 at both levels. This attack has a 2 minute cooldown.

Harness Fighting/Bare Fighting: At Level 19 the Master of the Longsword can choose to focus on either armored or unarmored fighting.

If he selects Harness Fighting, he may now use Plate or Half Plate armor.

If he selects Bare Fighting, the Master of the Longsword may apply 1.5x his DEX bonus to AC when wearing no armor.

Nach: The Master of the Longsword executes an attack which enables him to take control of the fight. At Level 21, as a Full Round Action, the Master of the Longsword makes an attack at his full BAB. If the attack is successful, the Master of the Longsword gains Initiative over that target for the duration of the fight, and Vor (see above) will apply as if he had Initiative from the beginning.

Aggressive Defender: At Level 24 the Master of the Longsword is constantly moving his weapon, ready to intercept any incoming blow even when he's attacking. Whenever using Measured Blows, he will automatically attempt to defend attacks that beat his AC. He only receives 1/2 his Parry skill added to the roll (DC = attackers attack roll) and doesn't receive a Riposte, but still attacks as normal.

Chink in the Armor: At Level 25 the Master of the Longsword has learned to spot and target the weaknesses in his opponent's armor. As a full round action he makes a spot check against a DC of (10 + Armor AC + Armor Enhancement) x 2. If successful, for the next 1 round per 3 class levels he gains +2 AC and +2 damage against that target. This ability has a 2 minute cooldown.

Master's Defense: At Level 27, the Master of the Longsword may add 1/2 his weapon's Enhancement Bonus as AC (Shield). This bonus stacks with his bonus for Skillfull Defense, and only applies against melee attacks.

Additional Feats

The following could be added as feats that can be selected at level:

Mordhau (Maneuver, Require Disabling Blow, sword equipped 2-handed): As a full round action, the Master of the Longsword takes his sword by the blade, and swings it like a mace or hammer. If the blow connects, it deals his weapon's normal dice and enhancement bonus in bludgeoning damage (IE a longsword would deliver 1d8 + EB Bludgeoning). The target must then make a Fort save with a DC of DC of 10 + 1/2 the Master's class level + his weapon size or be dazed for 1 round per 6 class levels. If the target fails this check by 10 or more, he is stunned for the same duration. Regardless of whether the attack hits or misses, the Master suffers an AB penalty of -2 for the next round. It has a cool down of 60 seconds.

Perfect Flurry (Require DEX 21, Flurry of Blows MotLS): The -2 damage for the extra attacks when fighting in Measured Blows is eliminated.

Break Fall (Require DEX 22): If knocked down, the Master of the Longsword makes a Tumble check against a DC set by his attacker's Knockdown Roll. If this check succeeds, the Master is able to escape the knockdown.

Agile Harness Fighter (Require Harness Fighting, DEX 24): The Max DEX bonus for wearing Full or Half Plate is increased by 2. This also stacks with the bonus for Mithral armor.

Deadly Accuracy (Require 25 DEX,Perfect Flurry): The Master of the Longsword has learned to make lethal effect of his ability to strike his target, relying on the deftness of his hands rather than raw power to inflict damage. He may now use his DEX modifier in place of STR for calculating damage when fighting in Measured Blows with one of his Weapons of Choice.
Made a few changes in a number of places, including removing Medium Armor proficiency, reducing the number of SP/Level and Concentration as a class skill, and made Harness Fighting/Bare Fighting a style choice. I've not yet added a style-specific feat progression, but that could easily be inserted. Coup-des-Gras and Chink in the Armor are now activated abilities with cooldowns. Total feat progression has been reduced, with a number of feats eliminated, rather than one feat every level. Bonus feats have also been tentatively removed.

Re: DEX 2Her - Master of the Longsword

Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2016 4:34 pm
by Thorsson
It's Coup de Grace.

Other than that, I'm not getting why we need this.

Re: DEX 2Her - Master of the Longsword

Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2016 5:01 pm
by Akroma666
I don't want to raise too much of a fuss.. but this class is a little unbalanced in the sense all one needs to do is stack Dex and you get 1.5x AC, +AB, and +DMG. Not to mention all the bonus feats like flury of blows. Also, since the class is about building a Dex 2 hand fighter, you aren't going to want heavy armor of any kind.. as i said before, pure Dex and he hits harder and more often than a figher, monk, or any melee for that matter.

To good for my tastes.

My 2 cents.

Re: DEX 2Her - Master of the Longsword

Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2016 5:21 pm
by Ambaryerno
Thorsson wrote:It's Coup de Grace.
There's more than one spelling.
Akroma666 wrote:I don't want to raise too much of a fuss.. but this class is a little unbalanced in the sense all one needs to do is stack Dex and you get 1.5x AC, +AB, and +DMG. Not to mention all the bonus feats like flury of blows. Also, since the class is about building a Dex 2 hand fighter, you aren't going to want heavy armor of any kind.. as i said before, pure Dex and he hits harder and more often than a figher, monk, or any melee for that matter.

To good for my tastes.

My 2 cents.
Dex-for-Damage is just spit-balling an idea for a high-level feat available on level up, not actually part of the progression. It can be tweaked (IE adding 1/2 DEX to normal STR bonus, a flat bonus, whatever) or discarded. The 1.5x DEX AC feat would only apply when no armor is being worn (so not even Light Armor).

Re: DEX 2Her - Master of the Longsword

Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2016 5:35 pm
by Valefort
Ambaryerno wrote:
Thorsson wrote:It's Coup de Grace.
There's more than one spelling.
No, there is only one and it's coup de grĂ¢ce. "Coup de gras" literally means "blow of fat". It's a huge eyesore for any french speaker, please remove :D

Re: DEX 2Her - Master of the Longsword

Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2016 5:42 pm
by Akroma666
Ambaryerno wrote:
Thorsson wrote:It's Coup de Grace.
There's more than one spelling.
Akroma666 wrote:I don't want to raise too much of a fuss.. but this class is a little unbalanced in the sense all one needs to do is stack Dex and you get 1.5x AC, +AB, and +DMG. Not to mention all the bonus feats like flury of blows. Also, since the class is about building a Dex 2 hand fighter, you aren't going to want heavy armor of any kind.. as i said before, pure Dex and he hits harder and more often than a figher, monk, or any melee for that matter.

To good for my tastes.

My 2 cents.
Dex-for-Damage is just spit-balling an idea for a high-level feat available on level up, not actually part of the progression. It can be tweaked (IE adding 1/2 DEX to normal STR bonus, a flat bonus, whatever) or discarded. The 1.5x DEX AC feat would only apply when no armor is being worn (so not even Light Armor).
Let's say you didn't get it then, combat insight alone with int would present huge benefits from this class. I just don't agree with giving a class 2H fitness, with flurry of blows, knock down, coup de gras dps, and 1.5 Dex AC on cloth +4 armor. Not to mention you could sneak and worse, take 8 levels of assassin with combat insight and some int splash to just murder.

You're trying to jam too many goodies in one build.. who wouldn't want to play this?! It's just too strong. Compare this to a pure fighter.. after 12, you're better in every way possible. Compare to a rogue, yeah you miss out on sneak dice, but you are far more durable and have more combat options.

It's just flat out too good because too much in one base class. If I saw this, i would power game break it.

Edit: it occurs i didn't give any positive suggestions towards buying other than its too good. So here goes:

Remove flurry of blows completely or reduce the BAB to medium

Remove heavy armor proficiency and Dex penalty completely

Remove knockdown and it should be kept strictly based.

Make it have a daze attack for 1 round, then allow coup de gas to trigger on daze effects. So you have to chain your attacks to properly work.

Coupe de gras only hits once or twice at your highest ab and deals max damage and auto crits. This uses your whole attack and fails if the target is not dazed.

Remove skillful defense or move it further down the list.

Remove or rework student of arms to work as is. Perhaps have it use parry instead.

Consider adding sneak dice to the build, i would suggest once every 3-4 levels.