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Up CL for PC crafted potions/scrolls to CL 25.
Posted: Wed Dec 14, 2016 7:47 am
by Steve
If this is not already possible, I'm suggesting it is made.
Why? Well, the Dispel Fix did what it was meant to do, and with it came the lessening of UMD use, as in, its lasting capabilities against some mobs, but most importantly, against Bosses.
If any PC wants to take on a Boss, it needs magic. I think that is pretty well understood. Maybe there are 1–3 builds that can do it without UMD, but that is pretty limiting.
So, by allowing for PC crafting of scrolls/potions up to 25 CL, it would provide:
- a) a 25%-to-be-dispelled magic use for adventuring on the Server (which is fair imho—it still honors a risk-vs-reward system)
b) creates another avenue for gold sink
c) creates another avenue for RP around merchant/trader activities
As an alternate idea to this, or maybe just a condition, it could be a worthwhile idea to create 1–3 NPC merchants that sell up-to-lvl 21 CL scrolls, just for the few Players that log on and never see anyone.
I would suggest them to be located in: Candlekeep, Thayan Enclave, Darkhold.
Thoughts?
Re: Up CL for PC crafted potions/scrolls to CL 25.
Posted: Wed Dec 14, 2016 8:23 am
by Face
Get wizard friends it helps alot
Re: Up CL for PC crafted potions/scrolls to CL 25.
Posted: Wed Dec 14, 2016 8:30 am
by Theodore01
Who has friends here
Re: Up CL for PC crafted potions/scrolls to CL 25.
Posted: Wed Dec 14, 2016 8:30 am
by NeonAvenger
It is already possible to brew potions up to CL30 (with a few spells capped at lower CL) with the Master Alchemist class.
However, sales of such elixirs are almost almost non-existent.
Even with the 30% discount for Master Alchemist the prices are very high and use/day or charged items with similar abilities are readily enough available that people prefer to hold their coin until they can get their hands on the alternatives.
Not sure that scrolls would fare much better unless prices were reduced somehow.
Re: Up CL for PC crafted potions/scrolls to CL 25.
Posted: Wed Dec 14, 2016 8:39 am
by Steve
NeonAvenger wrote:It is already possible to brew potions up to CL30 (with a few spells capped at lower CL) with the Master Alchemist class.
Why aren't these potions then being sold at the Consignment Auction/Mudd's???
Re: Up CL for PC crafted potions/scrolls to CL 25.
Posted: Wed Dec 14, 2016 8:49 am
by Mallore
As Neon said. The Costs are insane. It's not practical. Chances are you will lose money on the run with the costs for those potions.
Further the DC on those scrolls would be through the roof for all but those few players who Max UMD. I rather spend points on rp skills then Max UMD
Perhaps the better approach would be to stop designing dungeons that required magic to beat them and instead require parties of four or five people. Like dungeons and dragons is meant to be.
As an above poster suggested was "get a caster friend" but that is just silly as casters don't need melee friends because of how our dungeons are built. All to often I log on and ask one of my caster friends "hey want to hit this place". Only to get te respond "all ready did". This is because casters can solo almost the whole server quicker then brining a buddy or group. So our real problem is in our dungeon design.
Casters can to my knowledge make a few super high caster scrolls. I have had a few high caster level invisibles and bulls strength made for me. I think the caster 18 bulls strength was like 2k.
Re: Up CL for PC crafted potions/scrolls to CL 25.
Posted: Wed Dec 14, 2016 9:18 am
by Steve
So what does an Imp. Mage Armor CL 30 potion cost to craft?
What does a Gr. Heroism CL 30 potion cost to craft?
Re: Up CL for PC crafted potions/scrolls to CL 25.
Posted: Wed Dec 14, 2016 9:43 am
by NeonAvenger
Steve wrote:Why aren't these potions then being sold at the Consignment Auction/Mudd's???
Steve wrote:So what does an Imp. Mage Armor CL 30 potion cost to craft?
What does a Gr. Heroism CL 30 potion cost to craft?
Elixir costs are very predictable assuming there's no level cap (and you won't find that out until after you try to make one at a higher level).
Code: Select all
50 x Caster Level x Spell Level x Master Alchemist Discount
Assuming full Master Alchemist levels for the maximum discount it looks like:
- CL30 Improved Mage Armour: 50 x 30 x 3 x 0.7 = 3150
- CL30 Gr. Heroism: 50 x 30 x 6 x 0.7 = 6300
Given that the standard margin for brewing is around 10% and adding another 11% or so to offset the cost of putting the item up on Mudd's the actual prices on the Consignment Store would be around:
- CL30 Improved Mage Armour: 3850
- CL30 Gr. Heroism: 7700
And with Mudd's cut being larger than the profit margin if it doesn't sell, of which there is no guarantee for items of that expense, then you've already lost money.
You could increase the price to allow for the risk of it not selling, but the price is already terrifying and raising it another 12% percent or so to allow a second shot won't help that.
That's why you don't see them on the Consignment Shop.
I could write an essay on "Why Margins are so Small in the Brewing Industry" but I don't feel it would add to the discussion.
Hope that answers your questions (and apologies if the above is a bit incoherent, it's late here but I'm having a bout of insomnia).
Re: Up CL for PC crafted potions/scrolls to CL 25.
Posted: Wed Dec 14, 2016 9:50 am
by Steve
I'd pay 10k for a Gr. Heroism potion that I knew wouldn't fail on a Gr. Dispel, knowing that Bosses cast this first when a warded toon comes to attack them.
Figure a Boss drops 5k coin, and you hope for some decent loot drops when winning—if you do—then 10k for that added security your toon will prevail, seems correct.
As in: the risk vs. reward is 50/50. Now, we all know that 60/40 or 70/30 is a much better margin!
But I'd rather pay 10k for a potion that keeps my toon alive and save on XP—by not dying—than dither over a few thousand gold coins.
Re: Up CL for PC crafted potions/scrolls to CL 25.
Posted: Wed Dec 14, 2016 9:54 am
by Aspect of Sorrow
Mallore wrote:Perhaps the better approach would be to stop designing dungeons that required magic to beat them and instead require parties of four or five people. Like dungeons and dragons is meant to be.
A couple of notes here.
1. This is a cRPG influenced by D&D, not a replacement. It'd be nice to support every play type through the dungeons, but the end result / goal should be fairly available to most of those specific to combat where DM events cater to dynamics.
2. BGTSCC has a playerbase who are interested in the module and DM events with being involved with other players only as compulsory.
3. Most mages drop to the CR appropriate mobs anyways.
Re: Up CL for PC crafted potions/scrolls to CL 25.
Posted: Wed Dec 14, 2016 10:25 am
by Valefort
At the moment the cost per spell on consumables is as follow :
Scroll : CL * Spell level * 25
Wand : CL * Spell level * 15
Potion : CL * Spell level * 50 (30% discount for Master Alchemist)
We could tweak the crafting costs around so that wands are not by far the most cost effective consumable anymore.
For a given CL as potions need no UMD investment they should remain more expensive, then wands, then scrolls.
If we take craft wand costs as the stable point for recalculating the costs of crafting scrolls and potions then how about -20% cost for scrolls and +20% for potions (relatively to craft wand cost).
So for a CL 10 IMA spell the costs would be :
Scroll cost : 360 (CL * Spell level * 12 )
Wand cost : 450 (CL * Spell level * 15)
Potion cost : 540 (CL * Spell level * 18 )
Master Alchemist would be able to beat the wand cost on potions with their discount class feature.
Re: Up CL for PC crafted potions/scrolls to CL 25.
Posted: Wed Dec 14, 2016 10:41 am
by Mallore
Why would we want to make wands less optimal? I buy wands because they are the best value.
The appeal of the wand is because its better bang for you buck, its odd to me that we would consider making them no longer the better option to appeases one style of crafting or play style when there are dedicated wand makers on the server. So now its better to buy potions then wands?
There is no real good answer then just lowering all crafting costs. Which why not? The only response ive ever seen is "Casters wont be needed" Which I doubt. After all who needs stealth toons on their dungeon runs, no one right now. Much less who needs melee? I think once again the problem is, everything is taken as "solo" play on a game that was based on D&D and based on NWN which is a party system game.
Re: Up CL for PC crafted potions/scrolls to CL 25.
Posted: Wed Dec 14, 2016 10:54 am
by Steve
Mallore wrote:Why would we want to make wands less optimal? I buy wands because they are the best value.
Wands should be valuable in that they have 50 charges per one inventory slot, where as potions and/or scrolls take up 5 slots to equal.
The real question is whether potions or scrolls can be crafted with spells that cannot be placed on wands.
Re: Up CL for PC crafted potions/scrolls to CL 25.
Posted: Wed Dec 14, 2016 10:55 am
by Calodan
Mallore wrote:Why would we want to make wands less optimal? I buy wands because they are the best value.
The appeal of the wand is because its better bang for you buck, its odd to me that we would consider making them no longer the better option to appeases one style of crafting or play style when there are dedicated wand makers on the server. So now its better to buy potions then wands?
There is no real good answer then just lowering all crafting costs. Which why not? The only response ive ever seen is "Casters wont be needed" Which I doubt. After all who needs stealth toons on their dungeon runs, no one right now. Much less who needs melee? I think once again the problem is, everything is taken as "solo" play on a game that was based on D&D and based on NWN which is a party system game.
I can say that if they could stack scrolls up to 99 then wands are not the best bang for your buck. Wands are cheaper yes but they have 50 slots for one item space. So if I can fit 99 items in one items space which one do I purchase now? Yes I have to use a full turn for the scroll but >80% of people who use UMD use it for pre-fight buffs so the full turn action means nothing really. Potions being cheaper than wands is a PRC perk and thus should be cheaper. Would be weird if an everyday wand crafter can provide a better deal on something a MASTER does....that makes no sense. Masters are masters. Meaning better overall for cheaper pricing because they know their shite and every one who is any one comes to them for their stuff.
What Steve says makes sense. There was already a large balance of power here being on the side of magic so much so that the server had a GISH issue that they tried to correct through CL fix which really just pigeon holed us even more into specific builds on a game that is meant for multi-classing. There is literally no use for these builds now and fewer people who want to deal with expenditure of gold on consumables now. It is stupid ridiculous. If you are a UMD user and rely completely on that to make levels and gold you will lose money currently as you will get dispelled way too often and have to use too much bloody consumables in the process not even breaking even. Then you throw in the fact that you want to maybe some day afford that Epic gear in Hell? Yeah forget about it with the cost of consumables for a UMD user......
Re: Up CL for PC crafted potions/scrolls to CL 25.
Posted: Wed Dec 14, 2016 10:56 am
by Calodan
Steve wrote:Mallore wrote:Why would we want to make wands less optimal? I buy wands because they are the best value.
Wands should be valuable in that they have 50 charges per one inventory slot, where as potions and/or scrolls take up 5 slots to equal.
The real question is whether potions or scrolls can be crafted with spells that cannot be placed on wands.
Can it be made that every spell can be made into wands on this engine? I mean why not? Wands are a instant action that is quicker than scrolls but slower than potions so they do not lose all their value.