Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

at epic levels.

AC?
AB?

Thinking of a 2h melee character with optimized armor feats.

both.

ac is way more important, but if you cannot do much in damage to you opponent it will eventually crit you to death. and bore you to death aswell

ac is pretty difficult to get to crazy amounts when ab seems much easier.

45+ AC, 25+ damage, 40+ AB those are the minimum values for playability imo.

For two handed melee? Power attack and IPA.

45 AC is solid. (You'll have difficulties achieving this with a two-handed melee)
42 AB is solid.
40 damage per hit is solid.

Expose Weakness is an asset.

I recommend builds that incorporate the infamous WM/FB combo for two-handed melee. It has little in the way of defense, but its offense is amazing. Something like 14 Fighter/7 WM/5 FB/4 Whirling Dervish is pretty efficient.

Hmm. A monk has only 37 AB (22+ 10 (Wis)+4 (Gloves)+1(Focus)).

Epic prowess + expose weakness to the rescue ? Also monks are slightly different as they've got so many attacks at max AB, 38 AB is fine for them imo.

Valefort wrote:Epic prowess + expose weakness to the rescue ? Also monks are slightly different as they've got so many attacks at max AB, 38 AB is fine for them imo.

exactly. The problem is not the 38ab on the first attack but the ab on the 4 5 6th attack. Monks with flurry that get get extra attacks on their higher ability, make up for the low an compared to other builds.

Dont play pure melee... pure melee ends up as everyone's b****, players and mobs both! Hybrid or full spellcaster is the way to go. Without spells, magic abilities, or stealth you are 90% guaranteed to go down in most battles be they pve or pvp. Freinds dont let friends play pure melee. Dont do it...

V'rass wrote:Dont play pure melee... pure melee ends up as everyone's b****, players and mobs both! Hybrid or full spellcaster is the way to go. Without spells, magic abilities, or stealth you are 90% guaranteed to go down in most battles be they pve or pvp. Freinds dont let friends play pure melee. Dont do it...

uh... tell that to a dwarven defender or FB/WM. see how that works out for you.

we all know mage types wield the most power on the server, but that comes from the small % that plays the difficult class well. everyone has a counter. nothing here is God except the DM's.

i have personally witnessed a pretty powerful mage get smashed by a FB/WM. smashed!!

Dwarven Defender is the exception in this case. The class was designed to be the ultimate defense specialist. Every single feature adds to their defensive abilities and thus they can get such high ac that even the white dragon south of Nashkel cant hit them. They are pure defense but that is all they have... their ability to actually fight is quite limited. They may be an immovable object but they lack any unstoppable force.

just a bit of advice for pure melee, don't neglect saves. I would highly advise taking steadfast determination so you don't fail fortitude saves on a 1. If you can find any ways to pump your will saves up that will be beneficial, but obtaining a helm or wand for protection from evil to defend against mind spells can help a good deal as well. You will also benefit from wands of shield or the broach of shielding if you can get to the shop or contract another player to get you a few. Really even with dispel fix UMD is a real bonus if you are going two-hander as it allows you to use wands for a lot of extra AC if you can afford it (+6 from IMA, +4 Barkskin, +4 Shield). This allows you a bit more freedom with your item slots and makes you less reliant on being able to drop 100's of thousands of gold. You still need to get dodge boots +3 (4 when you can afford it) and a deflection item +3 (4 when you can afford it)... Early on potions of mage armor and barkskin have a decen duration and grant +7 AC and you can use potions of shield for +4 as needed (only lasts 5 minutes). A Two handed melee fighter can get 10 + 8 (Full Plate) + 1 (DEX) + 6 (IMA) + 4 (Shield) + 4 (Dodge) + 4 (Deflection) + 4 (Natural) = 41 AC, 43 if you get lucky and obtain MFP (and have a 13 DEX and a +3 item). Dodge Feat (required for WM) gives you +1 against the enemy you are attacking and you can get some extra AC via Luck of Hero's and Armor Skin (LoH is better if you are only getting one of them).

Two Weapon Fighter's can get a little higher taking TWD/ITWD, but lose out on damage and can struggle somewhat against enemies with DR. All in all it is somewhat subjective as it depends on what you want to do. If you are solo then defense becomes much more important than damage and Dwarven Defender becomes the 'optimized' choice, but Monks can do quite well as can stealth builds in some areas. There are many different ways to play melee so it is very dependent on if you will group up or solo and what role you are trying to fill in melee (tank, striker, controller, etc.)

V'rass wrote:Dwarven Defender is the exception in this case. The class was designed to be the ultimate defense specialist. Every single feature adds to their defensive abilities and thus they can get such high ac that even the white dragon south of Nashkel cant hit them. They are pure defense but that is all they have... their ability to actually fight is quite limited. They may be an immovable object but they lack any unstoppable force.

Dwarven Defender is NOT the exception, it is simply the best at it's job. There are many melee builds that can solo 99% of the server. Much of your advice here is wrong V'rass. People just need to realise what numbers are required. Chad is right, make your saves, especially your Will saves, as high as possible. Steadfast Determination helps in this area. Hugh offense numbers are not required, mob AC isn't that high, so you can settle for lower AB's - like around 39 to 40 base. This will increase by around 6 with a +3 str item and a +4 weapon. With tricks like Expose Weakness and Knockdown, you'll have no problem hitting.

For pure melee, Anointed Knight is the best PrC on the server. Better than Dwarven Defender because it doesn't pigeon-hole you into being a dwarf. If you want to roll a Dwarf melee toon, then go with DD. Don't neglect damage, but at the same time you don't need to be a FB/WM to succeed. My main is a variant on the FB/WM build and the amount of time I spend not using power attack with combat expertise on while using a shield is high. 5 levels of weapon master is deceptively good - especially with a weapon that already crits often.

So, in order of importance for a melee toon, I'd say:
Saves
AC
Damage avoidance (DR, concealment, etc)
Damage
AB

Your party can often help with saves. Once you have your target AC, AB, and damage down pack, the rest of the party can deal with most things you lack.

As far as defense goes, Dwarven defender is (of course) a good class. Dervish is a lovely class as well, it provides ample defense as well as offence. Defensive stance aside, it may be a little more dex based, but it provides +3 AC as well as providing tumble (2 AC) as a class skill. If you are going for an INT/DEX combo, duelist is lovely as well.

Man at Arms, while a bit more intensive level-wise, could also be used for a defensive melee character. As long as it also has 12 fighter for offense, it could be alright.

Divine Champion can help with saves, if that is trouble.

@AC81, I'd change that order up a bit

For a melee character (who's primary job is to provide a sustainable offense with the occasinal (brief) body-blocking):
AB (You can't do damage if you can't hit anything, and if you can't deal damage, you are worthless)
Damage (If you can't do damage, then hitting is worthless and you are worthless)
AC (You need to make sure not to be hit as much as possible to keep hitting)
Health (If you can't survive being hit, then you won't be able to hit very long)
Damage Avoidance (See Health and AC)
Saves (Like AC, but for certain situations. High Fort saves, you'll have, and that clears up most insta-death situations. Its the will/reflex CC situations this helps you mitigate.)
Utility (Stuff to help your party or yourself, like KD, Expose Weakness, UMD, etc. Its not your role, but it'll help if you have it.)

Your party should be able to help you with AB, AC, Saves, and Damage Avoidance. You need to help yourself for Damage, Health, and most of AB/AC however (for AB/AC, they can only help you so much).

Something I've noticed, not sure if it was mentioned already: Mobs tend to be a little higher on health than AC. I'd still pump all you can regardless, however.

Here is a build I worked out at one point:
http://nwn2db.com/build/?211713

It has AB, Damage, Damage Mitigation, HP, Decent Will/Fort saves, and utility (expose weakness, KD, full UMD, and healing). Its reflex saves and its AC are subpar.

Gear, patience and a bit of tactical gameplay when it's required.

All you need.

and lots of gold for healing kits