Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

First, the Blooded Feats is not added on start on. Secondly, the +1 Constitution is completely worthless. It's like when the DMs (no insult to you guys), where trying to think of an upgrade, they only thing they could think of that would substitute as an upgrade was +1 to Constitution and Blooded Feat. Not only is Blooded Feat useless, but MAKE NO SENSE LORE WISE considering a Half-Orcs favored class is Barbarian. Even Lore wise, there is no justification for -2 Intelligence. You're not born stupid unless you have genetic disorder (I have a son with a mental/intellectual disorder) and in DnD real world genetic disorders don't exist. Why not do what Port of Shadow did and give the Half-Orcs an extra feats like their human parents and +2 Strength and -2 Charisma. If all other half-breeds can get well-rounded attribute or one negative attribute with positive attribute in another then why not the half-orc? One the biggest reason I never roleplay a half-orc for long is because they have more going against their attributes than going for them. I mean even a human is a better barbarian than an Orc because of intelligence, an extra skill point, and an extra feet.

I know it sounds like I'm complaining, but you guy can't be serious about this being a legit upgrade for the Half-Orc. I just feel like this +1 to Constitution and blooded feat that isn't added at level 1 is just a slap in the face. I understand a lot of half-orc players don't complain because they know the half-orc won't get an upgrade any time soon, but come one guys.

Orcs are a monster race that are created with less intelligence than humans. When you mix a human and orc you get a dumb half human because of this trait. It's not a disorder.

There has been a long drawn out heated debate about giving some love to half orcs. I would like to see them get a bit more love myself.
If you give them too much then you have to give them an ecl 1 as well.

Half-Orc Traits (Ex)
Half-orcs possess the following racial traits.
+2 Strength, -2 Intelligence, -2 Charisma.
Medium size.
A half-orc’s base land speed is 30 feet.
Darkvision: Half-orcs can see in the dark up to 60 feet.
Orc Blood: For all effects related to race, a half-orc is considered an orc.
Automatic Languages: Common, Orc. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Giant, Gnoll, Goblin, Abyssal.
Favored Class: Barbarian.

-2 Int is D@D, so yes "lore wise" it is a thing. Perhaps your use to 4th + edition? +1 Con is not a worthless bonus, with +3 attribute Items people plan for offset stats all the time as an end build. Or it allows you to save points when upping your Con (gaining 1-4 points), so you could spend it on Int if you wished to offset that stat issue? Blooded is nice for it's +2 Initiative, but is a toss in yes. The game it's self gives neither the feat or +1 Con.

As a side not try being less critical and more constructive to the conversation please.

Edit added:
Having Orc blood is genetic. These are not different races of human like in the real world. The Orc race are born with lower working brains as a default genetically. People are born to differing IQ levels do to genetics, yes some of the stupidest people I know have a high IQ. It's about overcoming such, and also a reason why Wisdom and Int are not the same stat. IQ only makes is easier to learn, it does not mean someone is over all smarter.

Stonebar wrote:Half-Orc Traits (Ex)
Half-orcs possess the following racial traits.
+2 Strength, -2 Intelligence, -2 Charisma.
Medium size.
A half-orc’s base land speed is 30 feet.
Darkvision: Half-orcs can see in the dark up to 60 feet.
Orc Blood: For all effects related to race, a half-orc is considered an orc.
Automatic Languages: Common, Orc. Bonus Languages: Draconic, Giant, Gnoll, Goblin, Abyssal.
Favored Class: Barbarian.

-2 Int is D@D, so yes "lore wise" it is a thing. Perhaps your use to 4th + edition? +1 Con is not a worthless bonus, with +3 attribute Items people plan for offset stats all the time as an end build. Or it allows you to save points when upping your Con (gaining 1-4 points), so you could spend it on Int if you wished to offset that stat issue? Blooded is nice for it's +2 Initiative, but is a toss in yes. The game it's self gives neither the feat or +1 Con.

As a side not try being less critical and more constructive to the conversation please.

Edit added:
Having Orc blood is genetic. These are not different races of human like in the real world. The Orc race are born with lower working brains as a default genetically. People are born to differing IQ levels do to genetics, yes some of the stupidest people I know have a high IQ. It's about overcoming such, and also a reason why Wisdom and Int are not the same stat. IQ only makes is easier to learn, it does not mean someone is over all smarter.

1. First part describes their draw back.

2. They don't get extra language as a feat soooo....

3. As I said before, humans do better as Barbarian then orcs do.

4. No, we make it a thing. You can make the attribute anything you want. Hell other half-races, whether ecl or not, have more benefit then this class. And we couldn't offer them anything other than a +1 Constitution and Blooded feats that is bugged.

5. Um no, it's useless on some many levels it's not even funny. Nor does it make up for the -4 total in towards your other attributes.

6. Being less critical in a topic I created? Are you asking me to go along with the program? The reason I made the topic was to note how bad of an upgrade that got instead of giving them something more to make them playable. I mean if you are playing a half-orc for the sake of roleplay, this topic isn't about you or criticizing you, but if you're trying to do much more than just play another dumb orc then probably isn't the topic for you. No matter how you address this issue, it's up to the DM's too change it. I doubt it gets changed, but let's not ignore the elephant in the room as that isn't going to make the situation any better. This topic can get closed in the next hour, but my point would still stands that half orcs didn't get everything done to them in 2017 and the half orc being incredibly stupid is not justifiable anymore.

7. There is no such thing as a "high IQ stupid person." There is a difference between a highly intelligent naive person and a person who clever, yet stupid. You know every state in America and can calculate any problem in a instant, but you are forgetful, aloof, jaded or insane, then you have a high intelligence and low wisdom by DnD standards. You see a fire burning, but you have never seen a fire before, yet you know naturally not to touch it so you have a high wisdom to use common sense, but low intelligent to not know what fire is.

Rich people often fit into the high intelligent low wisdom category because they don't get real world experience, but have access to the finest schools. Poor people fit into the category of high wisdom, but poor intelligence because while they have more real world experience than rich people, most of the time they don't know what's going on or have information about anything. Yes, it possible for the opposite to be true for both groups and it's true you can have a medium of both from both groups, but more times than none, you are going to get those two stereotypes from those lifestyles.

With that being said, intelligent and wisdom go hand and hand in real life for you to have common sense, you also have to be very smart. And while you can have a higher wisdom, your intelligent shouldn't be far behind. (And vice versa)

really anymore and ecl 1 would be necessary.

ARHicks00 wrote: I mean even a human is a better barbarian than an Orc because of intelligence, an extra skill point, and an extra feet.

don't really agree with that. and tbh having a debate like this between two races of equal ecl makes a lot of sense.

aaron22 wrote:really anymore and ecl 1 would be necessary.

ARHicks00 wrote: I mean even a human is a better barbarian than an Orc because of intelligence, an extra skill point, and an extra feet.

don't really agree with that. and tbh having a debate like this between two races of equal ecl makes a lot of sense.

Knockdown feats and disarm feats add a lot to combat utility and one extra feats well as one skill point allows for better performance both RP and combat wise. Half-orcs get a overall +1 bonus to strength and there are FEW venue to use strength out of AB, damage, carrying items, and knockdown. Also considering the half-elf race got more an upgrade that made them better, but no ECL slap on them? LOL okay. I love how we ignored their upgrades and call orcs overpowered. Hell, dwarves get a +2 Constitution and -2 Charisma as well as a free weapon feat, but orcs get +2 strength and -2 to both intelligence and charisma, yet upgrade them where they have -2 Charisma and maybe a feat and we have to put a ECL on them? Seriously, we don't see a whole lot of variety of roleplay of RP on other servers because of the downside of playing said races. We could just chuck it up to "suck it up, cupcake" but again that is ignoring the elephant in the room.

ECL characters may get 1 or 3 level less than a half-orc, but they do overall better in the long run as they have more racial feats or get more consideration when DM are doing upgrade over the half-orc.

1-3 I never disagreed with.

4. No, we make it a thing. You can make the attribute anything you want. Hell other half-races, whether ecl or not, have more benefit then this class. And we couldn't offer them anything other than a +1 Constitution and Blooded feats that is bugged.

It's a thing because lore wise it is. As for if other races are better, and if we should re look at improving half-Orc I never disagreed.

5. Um no, it's useless on some many levels it's not even funny. Nor does it make up for the -4 total in towards your other attributes.

Not it's not useless. Whether it can be better is another point.

6. Being less critical in a topic I created? Are you asking me to go along with the program?

Edited for Rule #2 and #5. -Hawke

The reason I made the topic was to note how bad of an upgrade that got instead of giving them something more to make them playable. I mean if you are playing a half-orc for the sake of roleplay, this topic isn't about you or criticizing you, but if you're trying to do much more than just play another dumb orc then probably isn't the topic for you. No matter how you address this issue, it's up to the DM's too change it. I doubt it gets changed, but let's not ignore the elephant in the room as that isn't going to make the situation any better. This topic can get closed in the next hour, but the point still stands that Orcs didn't get everything deliver to them in 2017, the orc being incredibly stupid is not justifiable anymore.

A -2 Int does not make you stupid. any more then having a standard human 11 Int makes you a genius.

7. There is no such thing as a "high IQ stupid person." There is a difference between a highly intelligent naive person and a person who clever, yet stupid. You know every state in America and can calculate any problem in a instant, but you are forgetful, aloof, jaded or insane, then you have a high intelligence and low wisdom by DnD standards. You see a fire burning, but you have never seen a fire before, yet you know naturally not to touch it so you have a high wisdom to use common sense, but low intelligent to not know what fire is.

I said exactly the same thing. Int does not mean your smarter, being smart is a factor of many traits.People are born to differing IQ levels do to genetics, yes some of the stupidest people I know have a high IQ. It's about overcoming such, and also a reason why Wisdom and Int are not the same stat. IQ only makes is easier to learn, it does not mean someone is over all smarter. Said what you said, change Stupid with foolish if you like, the meaning behind it was respectively perfectly clear.

Rich people often fit into the high intelligent low wisdom category because they don't get real world experience, but have access to the finest schools. Poor people fit into the category of high wisdom, but poor intelligence because while they have more real world experience than rich people, most of the time they don't know what's going on or have information about anything. Yes, it possible for the opposite to be true for both groups and it's true you can have a medium of both from both groups, but more times than none, you are going to get those two stereotypes from those lifestyles.

I think your overly generalizing, but I see that point your going for, and if I read right I agree. Which is why I said Smart is a factor of many aspects not just IQ.

With that being said, intelligent and wisdom go hand and hand in real life for you to have common sense, you also have to be very smart. And while you can have a higher wisdom, your intelligent shouldn't be far behind. (And vice versa)

Int and Wis can be miles apart.

Opps edited to fix something that should have been in quotes, twice lol

ok so take the int down one so that the pluses and minuses are equal. what difference would that make?

its not going to have the extra feat because it has darkvision. it has bonus languages so it would not get an open extra one. it has a pretty mundane feat to kinda of but not really make up for the somewhat more helpful ones that dwarves and elves get. being as the H/O is melee oriented, the initiative bonus makes sense without having something else that is OMG OP.

its not a huge deal. gameplay is not killed by playing the H/O. probably the worst thing about being a H/O is being mistaken for a full orc all the time.

i personally dont think H/O need any love. but if i had to concede, i would take 1 off the int penalty. and leave it at that.

aaron22 wrote:ok so take the int down one so that the pluses and minuses are equal. what difference would that make?

its not going to have the extra feat because it has darkvision. it has bonus languages so it would not get an open extra one. it has a pretty mundane feat to kinda of but not really make up for the somewhat more helpful ones that dwarves and elves get. being as the H/O is melee oriented, the initiative bonus makes sense without having something else that is OMG OP.

its not a huge deal. gameplay is not killed by playing the H/O. probably the worst thing about being a H/O is being mistaken for a full orc all the time.

i personally dont think H/O need any love. but if i had to concede, i would take 1 off the int penalty. and leave it at that.

1. Or just don't give them Constitution and give them a normal int

2. So do Elves, but there are not ECL. Same with dwarves. In fact, most non-human races have advantages by more racial feats than human and yet, no ECL. If your argument of making them ECL is because they get Strength and Darkvision, it is the worst argument since darkvision does not grant blindfight. And no, DV is not good as you have to turn it on and off, when transitioning or when someone holds up a light source.

3. Except they don't get in the initiative since it bugged and improve initiative would be better if you're going the melee oriented route.

4. Except it does not get extra language. I just tried and retry to build an orc. Not only do you not get blooded, which is useless feat and force feat, but you don't extra language too. Try playing an orc sometime.

5. Edited for Rule #2 -Hawke As I said, other races get vastly superior status and extra feats OVER the H/O, but give a H/O useful feat and attribute would call for them to get an ECL. As I said, Elf get DV, blades, +2 Dexterity/-2 Con, Elven archer class specialize for them, and a search mode that does not hurt their speed and never turns off. H/O has DV, +2 strength, -2 Charisma/intelligence, and NO FEATS, but the best we can do for them is a bugged a started feats and -1 Constitution? And asking for an extra feet at start and -2 intelligence is asking for too much. Privilege much?

What is bugged about blooded?

i do play an orc

see below

check the sig

"Time to fix the half-orc" - a topic title that would imply the half-orc race is broken - it isn't. It is well balanced for the server. Sure, there are other races that are more powerful or that are more cohesive with powerful classes (there are weaker races than the half-orc too btw), but as it stands the half-orc doesn't need any more tweaking. If people want to run around playing half-orc bards, sorcerers or even ... paladins (gasp) then that is their call, but they shouldn't be surprised when their build doesn't perform exceptionally. When built towards class combo's that favour strength and constitution, your half-orc shines.

I would also like to know what is bugged about the Blooded feat, we've never had a report of it in QC to my knowledge.

That +1 CON is the equivalent of an epic feat...if building a barbarian having that bonus to con makes it easier to qualify for both epic rage and epic dr/regen. So you lose a feat and some skill points, but gain the ability to start with higher STR/CON and more easily qualify for the feats that barbarians need in epics. Seems a fair trade to me.

chad878262 wrote:That +1 CON is the equivalent of an epic feat...if building a barbarian having that bonus to con makes it easier to qualify for both epic rage and epic dr/regen. So you lose a feat and some skill points, but gain the ability to start with higher STR/CON and more easily qualify for the feats that barbarians need in epics. Seems a fair trade to me.

So I'm guess +2 Con to Dwarves and +2 Dex elves is two epic feats. You're not making a good argument, but making up lame excuse to not upgrade a race that's barely played as it is. The whole server is human and elves. And you guys can lie say it is because you lie elves as I like Dwarves, but the reality is most people play Elves and humans so much is because the advantages they have over other races. Halfling are played as spellcaster or rogue. Rarely are they played as warrior-types or rangers. We don't play them because the heart of DnD is based on stereotype as there are many characters in DnD lore who break the mold on that. Rather we play those classes, especially elves and humans because of the advantages they get.

I tried to go out my way to play a Half-orc that wasn't a barbarian, but due to the Int and Charisma disadvantage, it is next impossible to play a wizard, warlock or sorcerer, shaman, favored soul, etc. Let's be honest the snubbing has nothing to do with orcs becoming more powerful, but the fact that would encourage less people to play elves and humans. Let's be honest the people screaming to not give orcs reworking or to give them ECL have a in-game racial bias. They rather see players play half orcs as savages than have to deal with half orc that are extremely intelligent. Back before Port of Shadow went under we had debate on this and most of the issue about upgrading orcs were similar these basis arguments. Ironically, majority of the server were elf, human, or drow. In other servers, it was the same thing with both the arguments and and racial population.

Yeah there Halfling, half-orcs, etc. too, but they were few and far in between, but if you played out of the norm (A half-orc paladin, a Halfling barbarian, etc.), a lot of players were either baffled or continue treat your character as if they were played their stereotype class. (Got to the point where one player would tolerate the barbarian orc, but would harass my female orc paladin on a consistent basis)

If this is a debate on why orcs shouldn't get an upgrade, well the arguments why half-orcs shouldn't is pathetically bad when you compared them to other races. Edited Rule #2 -Hawke make a cast why giving orcs +2 strength, -2 Charisma, and Dark Vision while playing a racial class such as the elf who gets +2 Dex, -2 Constitution, free sword/bow feats, a immune to enchantments, dark vision, a PrC class specific to their race, and a seeker mode that never turns off or a 4 foot midget with orc/goblin/giant advantages, +2 spell save, free skill focus, dark vision, a +2 Con, - 2 Cha, two PrC classes for the race, and free axe feat.

Rule #2 - Hawke All jokes aside, you guy know the half-orc needs love so trying to downplay it to continue to force people to play stereotypes is not going to encourage variety in this server.

aaron22 wrote:i do play an orc

see below

check the sig

Then why lie and say Half-orc get blooded feat when they don't and say Constitution is playing when it just gives them +1 to nothing? If you dumb everything into Constitution, you're left with one point to put towards nothing. Rule #2 - Hawke

AC81 wrote:"Time to fix the half-orc" - a topic title that would imply the half-orc race is broken - it isn't. It is well balanced for the server. Sure, there are other races that are more powerful or that are more cohesive with powerful classes (there are weaker races than the half-orc too btw), but as it stands the half-orc doesn't need any more tweaking. If people want to run around playing half-orc bards, sorcerers or even ... paladins (gasp) then that is their call, but they shouldn't be surprised when their build doesn't perform exceptionally. When built towards class combo's that favour strength and constitution, your half-orc shines.

I would also like to know what is bugged about the Blooded feat, we've never had a report of it in QC to my knowledge.

1. A card don't have to be broken down to fix it. Sometimes, it means correcting or balancing. Orc is extremely unbalance in this server and other servers due to their attributes are inferior to others.

2. No, it isn't. That's why a large amount of the people who play orcs are melee. That's not balance if your force to play a typical path.

3. Rule #2 - Hawke

4. Are those weaker races playable? I'm not talking about strength wise as you don't have to be a strong person to dominate someone on this server as every cleric, bard, warlock, and mage has shown. The other races in this server have more versatility than the orc and thus, have more venue for RP outside of "big dumb swinging heavy metal object" guy.

5. You to think, I'm against, half-orc paladin, bards, sorcerers, wizards, etc. It's the fact that there attributes making very hard to not only be those classes, do so without being gimped or having another class out perform them in those areas. As I said, human do better than half-orcs as barbarians and that's sad.

6. Actually, Half-orcs only get +2 strength with -2 to both intelligence and charisma. You know what class main focus is strength? Barbarian, Fighters, and Rangers. Humans, elves, and dwarves do better in all of three of those categories As I said, Orcs get a +1 advantage in damage, carrying, and hitting, but humans gets more versatility, which goes a long way gameplay wise. Not just with barbarians and fighters, but just other classes too.

ARHicks00 wrote:Let's be honest the people screaming to not give orcs reworking or to give them ECL have a in-game racial bias. They rather see players play orcs as savages than have to deal with orc that extremely intelligent. (sic)