Blackguard and Assassin (And Pious Templar) Caster Level

[metaquad4]

Since the dispel fix, Blackguard and Assassin spells have taken a significant nerf (as well as any future 10 level PRCs with spellcasting, such as Pious Templar).

In order to address this, I suggest that Blackguard, Assassin, and Pious Templar get their caster level for their specific class spells changed to Class Level*3. This will allow them to have Caster Level 30 at level 10, which is their max. And thus, it will both give a reason for people to take lots of levels in them (in the case of Blackguard especially) and use their spells, since they won't be guaranteed to be dispelled by low level dispels at max level.

tldr: Change PRCs that have 10 levels that can cast spells (Like Blackguard, Assassin, and Pious Templar) from Caster Level = Class Level to Caster Level = Class Level*3.

[dedude]

This actually sounds pretty fair to me.

[Vogar Eol]

I also like this idea, even if it only affected dispel check. I was just looking over Pious Templar and judged its spells as "useless" because of the dispels.

[Storm Munin]

A couple of humble questions:
- Why should classes that are not truly caster classes be hard to dispel?
- Does this mean someone stopping at, say, cleric or wizard 10 should also recieve such a bonus to CL?

Granted paladin and ranger have already gotten some love spellwise, but they still need the casterlevels to have long duration spells that are harder to dispel.


That said, as for the suggestion:
Maybe that ship has never sailed, but werent some prestige classes supposed to allow spell progression in those classes?
At least dragonslayer should do so according to our wikia.

CL15 x3 (assuming Practised Spellcaster wont add up above 30 as per usual, yay wont need that feat given the change) round up to nice CL45.


How about going x2, if it is deemed the classes of assassin, blackguard and their similars should have longer duration spells and be harder to dispel?

Still would mean CL30 on a Blackguard(Assassin)10/Dragonslayer10.

/M

[Calodan]

A couple of humble questions:
- Why should classes that are not truly caster classes be hard to dispel?
- Does this mean someone stopping at, say, cleric or wizard 10 should also recieve such a bonus to CL?

Granted paladin and ranger have already gotten some love spellwise, but they still need the casterlevels to have long duration spells that are harder to dispel.


That said, as for the suggestion:
Maybe that ship has never sailed, but werent some prestige classes supposed to allow spell progression in those classes?
At least dragonslayer should do so according to our wikia.

CL15 x3 (assuming Practised Spellcaster wont add up above 30 as per usual, yay wont need that feat given the change) round up to nice CL45.


How about going x2, if it is deemed the classes of assassin, blackguard and their similars should have longer duration spells and be harder to dispel?

Still would mean CL30 on a Blackguard(Assassin)10/Dragonslayer10.

/M

Question 1 : Are they quazi spells from quazi spell casters? NO they are not in my opinion they are using abilities that are similar to the spells and should be tied to Character level for CL IMHO since these are in my mind powerful abilities rather than spells so they should represent and be rewarded in a manner that rewards for going all out in the class.

Question 2 : Since true spell casters have a way and are encouraged to go to CL28 the answer is no on this one because they are using SPELLS and not ABILITIES.

With that said in my mind it does make sense to buff these classes since they are most often used in conjunction with a melee build and this would help to BUFF some of those melee builds by giving those classes a bump to keep dispel from hindering them so much.

[Nachti]

A couple of humble questions:
- Why should classes that are not truly caster classes be hard to dispel?

Yep. Why should a paladin get CL 30 at level 30 when hes supposted to be 1/2*HD? Why should a level 20 Wizard have problems dispelling a 20+ paladin?

[metaquad4]

Its a quality of life thing, considering mobs spam dispels on the server now. It basically makes a relatively weak set of spells even weaker. And its a damn shame, because with the new blackguard spells, there COULD be some use to taking it full. Not to mention the main reason to take pious templar (will be) the spellbook. Blackguard is still only useful for a 3-4 dip, and pious templar will be utterly worthless when it is released. There is no point to that in this enviroment.

And no, caster classes that can get all 30 levels will not be given any power. If I didn't write it in the suggestion, I'm not suggesting it (I had assumed that would be a given). It is for spell casting classes that can only get levels from their PRC. The upcoming pious templar, blackguard, and assassin. As well as any other upcoming PRCs that only receive spellcasting from PRC and have less than 30 levels.

Its the same reason rangers and paladins were given their fixes. Blackguard, Assassin, and Pious Templar all have a similar nature to their spellcasting. Especially now, when more custom spells have been added to Blackguard and Assassin.

@Calodan They have spellbooks in PnP. That was included in Rasael's spellbook patch, though, that patch wasn't implemented because it suffered from a few glaring quality of life issues itself from what I gathered.

[chad878262]

We've had discussions in QC with regard to that and, while I cannot say that we will or will not make any changes in relation to BG/Assassin I CAN say I would not be in favor to give them class level * 3 = caster level, that's just too much.

No matter what a 10 level PRC investment is not the same as a 20+ investment in casting classes. The higher you go in CL the more you are dependent upon those spells. Assassin and BG should NOT be dependent upon spellbook for their survival. It should be a nice bonus/bump on certain occasions, but really not different than a Rogue with UMD. I could see MAYBE bumping their CL by 50-100% at most, which, with PSC would bring them to CL19-24, higher if Storm Munin's point about Dragon Slayer is considered, but I can't see a R/IB/A getting CL30 (or 28 even). I have argued for such a change in the past and still think they should get something, be that a spellbook with more advancement in CL or PRC's that allow them to advance CL, but just givng fee CL 30 for 10 levels investment is too much... How about a R10/BG10/A10... CL30 BG and Assassin spells! not that I necessarily think this would be some kind of OP juggernaut, but it would have two CL30 spellbooks, Epic Precision, 10d6 sneak attack and spells to enhance INT, STR, DEX, Displacement, etc. I think this would be too much.

[metaquad4]

That 10 level blackguard/assassin may get 8d6 sneak attack and 2 CL 30 spellbooks, but its giving up a heck of a lot. Its giving up 20 levels, which could be used for more useful things and ends up being a gimped build. You'd have been better off taking 21 Phantom/9 Assassin, you'd be untouchable with concealment and the ability to interchange between HiPs and ethereal step. And you'd have 16d6 sneak attack and ability boosting spells that boost the stats you use. Your CL would be 27, as well.

In your case, blackguard spells don't exactly add too much on for your capacity, and your sneak attacks are woefully inadequate compared to a character who devoted themselves to sneak attacks. Specialization rewards when you are building in nwn2, and spreading yourself thin leads to a weaker character.

10 Levels of investment is no small feat. And with classes like blackguard, they need something to incentive them to proceed past 4 (something that isn't a cheap gimmick). Pious Templar will as well need some serious help, as its shaping up to be rather worthless (in its wiki form) given the dispel changes. Honestly, assassin is the only one that doesn't need help but it should be added for consistency's sake.

If these classes are to thrive, then either they must have spellcasting progression that will allow them to not be dispelled in every corner of the server or they must be given a central class feature that scales across the levels and gives them something to take the class for aside from casting (in assassin's case, this is sneak attack). Pious templar offers casting with a few other gimmicks, and blackguard offers good rewards from 1-4, but the other levels are left with nothing useful.

[aaron22]

could feats be used to lift CL's of these classes. that way there would have to be some investment but the end state is possible, albeit at some cost.

feat: CL doubles for X class
reqs 10 levels in x class, 10 Spellcraft, 10 lore (appropriate subtype)

feat: CL triples for x class
reqs 10 levels in x class 20 spellcraft, 20 lore (appropriate subtype)

[metaquad4]

Improved Practiced Spellcaster (Assassin, Blackguard, Pious Templar):
Requires: Practiced Spellcaster (Assassin, Blackguard, Pious Templar), Spellcraft 8.
Assassin Requires: Knowledge Arcana 10,
Blackguard Requires: Knowledge: The Planes 10,
Pious Templar Requires: Knowledge Religion 10,
Doubles the CL that the class's HD provides.

Epic Practiced Spellcaster (Assassin, Blackguard, Pious Templar):
Requires: Character Level 21, Improved Practised Spellcaster (Assassin, Blackguard, Pious Templar), Spellcraft 12.
Assassin Requires: Knowledge Arcana 15,
Blackguard Requires: Knowledge: The Planes 15,
Pious Templar Requires: Knowledge Religion 15,
Triples the CL that the class's HD provides.

[aaron22]

i think it should also require 10 levels in the PrC.

[metaquad4]

Maybe 5 for the improved and 10 for the final. Though, I'd take off the lore requirements in that case. Its supposed to be improving and encouraging taking more levels in Blackguard and Pious Templar, not further discouraging it (with too hefty requirements. Level seems fine though, even better than lore). Assassin is just there because of consistency's sake (it needs no help).

[aaron22]

the skill investments are not really much at all. and it makes sense on what the feat is granting. 3x your CL is no joke buff. if i could put 10 levels in wizzy but get 30 CL. well i would have a much easier time making that gish.

[Marathados]

I like the feat idea!