Bucklers and Main Gauches: Off-hand for Swash and Duelist

[Ambaryerno]

Currently, Swashbucker and Duelist are incapable of using shields or off-hand weapons without losing access to most of their abilities. However there were two pieces of off-hand equipment that were quite significant to the dueling culture on which both classes draw influence: The buckler, and the main gauche.

The buckler is particularly important to the Swashbuckler, considering that's where they get their name in the FIRST place. The buckler would have the same stats as a light shield, however shield bash would not work with it.

The main gauche is a particular form of dagger, usually made in a matching set with a rapier, and utilized primarily for parrying (so give it + Shield AC like the rapiers in Roaring Shore) though it could also be used for thrusts and close range.

Both the buckler and main gauche would allow the Swash or Duelist to make use of their off-hand without losing their abilities.

[The Whistler]

Swashbucklers can use shields just fine, it's only duelists that can't equip an offhand.

[Ambaryerno]

Swashbucklers can use shields just fine, it's only duelists that can't equip an offhand.

Could have sworn there was a Swash feat that didn't work with shields/off-hand weapons.

Regardless. Bucklers and main gauches.

[The Whistler]

It'd be nice to have a mockup prop like a lantern with a parrying dagger model that confers no other bonuses. Because if it did, monks would have an easy way of snagging up to +4 points of undispellable shield AC.

I believe duelist could use some love, too. Elaborate parry could give +1 shield AC for every 6 ranks in parry, perhaps ? If such a thing is even possible to code.

[Blackman D]

swash abilities dont work when wearing anything heavier than light armor or when encumbered

[Valefort]

There are daggers with deflection AC, they make good mains gauches.

[Tantive]

Duelist

Canny Defence is lost when using a lightshield/buckler.

Enhanced Mobility is lost when using lightshield/buckler.

Precise strike does not work when using an offhand weapon.

This makes me wonder, is swashbuckler 30 a viable option?

[Ambaryerno]

There are daggers with deflection AC, they make good mains gauches.

As noted by Tantive, that's no use for Duelist as you'd lose a big chunk of your abilities. Never mind the fact that Flourish will outstrip the amount of Deflection AC bonus you can get from most weapons and items, anyway.

The idea of the main gauche would be that because it's a specialized dueling weapon, it would not prevent the duelist from dual-wielding with one as other weapons do. You could reduce its damage from a standard dagger to, say, 1d3.

[Steve]

Daggers are a piercing weapon = excellent for Duelists.

But where do these Deflection Daggers get sold/acquired? Never seen ever in my time here, only rapiers.

[Rhifox]

Daggers are a piercing weapon = excellent for Duelists.

But where do these Deflection Daggers get sold/acquired? Never seen ever in my time here, only rapiers.

There is/was a +2 Deflection dagger on the AH this week that I saw. It'd be really cool though IMO if there was an NPC store that sold them somewhere so that you don't have to rely on an incredibly random loot system to get one.

The buckler is particularly important to the Swashbuckler, considering that's where they get their name in the FIRST place. The buckler would have the same stats as a light shield, however shield bash would not work with it.

No point in making a separate item for it. Light shields are bucklers. It's +1 to AC (you can't go lower than that) and there's no reason bucklers can't shield bash (bucklers got used for that IRL). Easiest change is just to make duelist bonuses work with light shields (but not heavy/tower shields). Swashbuckler getting shield proficiency would be good too, ideally also with its bonuses only working with light shields but not heavy/tower ones.

[Ambaryerno]

Daggers are a piercing weapon = excellent for Duelists.

Yes, I know daggers are a piercing weapon. The problem is that because of the class restrictions Duelists can't use them as an off-hand weapon without losing most of their abilities. The idea would be to introduce one that CAN be used off-hand.

So either that, or allow Duelists to use ANY weapon that falls under Tiny in the off-hand.

No point in making a separate item for it. Light shields are bucklers. It's +1 to AC (you can't go lower than that) and there's no reason bucklers can't shield bash (bucklers got used for that IRL). Easiest change is just to make duelist bonuses work with light shields (but not heavy/tower shields). Swashbuckler getting shield proficiency would be good too, ideally also with its bonuses only working with light shields but not heavy/tower ones.

I know how bucklers were used IRL (I haven't done much with I.33, but I am basically familiar. However smacking someone with a buckler is much more like slugging someone with brass knuckles than it is a true shield bash). My understanding is that 3.5ed bucklers can't bash, thus why I used it here to differentiate from light shields.

[Rhifox]

My understanding is that 3.5ed bucklers can't bash, thus why I used it here to differentiate from light shields.

Ah, that I wasn't aware of.

[Valefort]

Canny defense is hard coded as far as I can tell so no way to add any kind fo main gauche for duelists, sorry.

[Ambaryerno]

Canny defense is hard coded as far as I can tell so no way to add any kind fo main gauche for duelists, sorry.

Is there a specific flag on torches and lanterns that allows those to be equipped without breaking those abilities? Basically, use that as a way to trick the game into thinking an off-hand weapon isn't actually an off-hand weapon as far as Duelist abilities go?

[Steve]

Are Duelists not "supposed" to be one-handlers?!?

There was once a plan to upgrade the Duelist class so that Improved Parry would synergize with skill points in Parry to give +1 deflection AC per 5 skill points (max 30 or something I think).

That was a long time ago suggestion that slipped through the cracks when Luna went missing...maybe it still had merit, and then balances out the single hand no shield fighting style of the master Duelist?!?