Evil summons used by players

[Nachti]

Summons can be attacked on sight, but normal PvP rules must be followed for the summoner (the player). The owner of the summons must also follow normal PvP rules in order to attack the killer of his or her summons. (Summons include any creature that can be summoned through a spell or an ability, and that is not a Familiar or an Animal Companion: These include angels, devils, elementals, and undead, among others.)

Just a question. Do people identify the summons before attacking? Here are the proper Skills for the creatures:

Undead: Lore: Religion
Magical Beasts: Lore: Arcana
Demons & Devils: Lore: Planes
Aberrations: Lore: Dungeoneering

Theoretical a Player should also make a lore check when meeting an angel. "Is this an angel or evil demon?" --> failed Roll. --> Its a demon! Destroy it! Or Most likely: I dont know what it is, better stay alert and defensive.

[Valefort]

Wouldn't the DCs be very low in most cases ?

[Nachti]

In general, the DC of such a check equals 10 + the monster’s HD. So for our outsider summons it would be:

Level 5: 20
Level 6: 22
Level 7: 24
Level 8: 26
Level 9: 30

Identifying Outsiders: Arcane casters have a good chance of identifying such creatures quickly, Rangers could make use of their favored enemy feats and paladins can sense their aura. But fighter and divine types will usually have problems identifying them.

[Valefort]

Isn't it identifying precisely .. ? I mean it's probably hard to know if that undead is an alternative northern goblin zombie model B but it should be very obvious it's a zombie (which is what matters here).

[Steve]

Maybe the point here is whether a PC identifies the Summons as being of/controlled by another PC, or whether the Summons is "wild," or "seen" as just another mob?

[Nachti]

If you think realistic about it.... would you risk dying by attacking something that looks five times as strong as you? And it doesnt attack you.

Only if you know you can beat it, you would attack. But metagaming should not be the source of that knowledge.

[Vesgar]

I agree with Valefort on this. Maybe your character is not able to tell the difference between a ghoul and a ghast, but I'm sure he can guess that thing has no place around inhabited places or pretty much in civilization. I think the same goes for most outsiders, but celestials usually are not that "monstrous", so that'd just make someone ponder.

On the other hand, attacking the "thing" comes down to how confident/reckless your character is. You can still yell for help or run for the guards.

[Nachti]

I ask because I am overhauling alot of creatures (summons) and I could put some additional informations on their description. Perhaps it enhances roleplay.

This creature resembles a living gothic gargoyle with scaly skin. It has the wings of a bat and a whipping, rehensile tail that ends in a stinger.

Lore: Planes DC 14: This creature is an abishai. It is an outsider native to the Nine Hells of Baator.
Lore: Religion DC 14: Abishais are believed to be devils created by Tiamat. They all swear their fealty to her.

[Vartigy]

When it comes to undead... I'm pretty sure most characters already have pre-requisite knowledge from the copious training grounds they've already cleared.
So if you rock up with anything undead in tow... I wouldn't expect anyone to stop, drop and roll a lore check.
Considering, most of the civilised land rules cover undead... ? (happy to be corrected here).
Plus, in theory, most trade roads , especially ones around civilised locales are patrolled by either guards or the copious amounts of do-gooding paladin orders. So one should half expect one to appear from no where and smite anything remotely undead.

/2 cents.

Oh... and best excuse for summoning undead i've heard to date ... "What?! Would you rather I rip an angle from the heavens? better to disturb the dead!"

[Tsidkenu]

Only a DM can ask a player to roll Knowledge to identify/glean weaknesses of a given creature.

BGTSCC is a dynamic RP environment where players need to balance between what their characters know and what their characters have personally experienced during their RP.

A fighter might have Arcana 0, but after their first fight with a great Red they'd know they spew fire (and copious amounts of it) and, surviving that, that a dragon's hide can only be breached with magically enchanted weaponry.

Also, just because a player has failed their roll to identify an angel, it doesn't automatically mean they should conclude the being is a demon. Simply, "I don't know/can't tell what it is." The palpable aura of goodness that angels emanate would probably lead to the opposite conclusion, actually, providing comfort to a good aligned PC, revulsion from an evil aligned one, and apathy from neutral.

[Pimple]

I ask because I am overhauling alot of creatures (summons) and I could put some additional informations on their description. Perhaps it enhances roleplay.

This creature resembles a living gothic gargoyle with scaly skin. It has the wings of a bat and a whipping, rehensile tail that ends in a stinger.

Lore: Planes DC 14: This creature is an abishai. It is an outsider native to the Nine Hells of Baator.
Lore: Religion DC 14: Abishais are believed to be devils created by Tiamat. They all swear their fealty to her.

I like this. Not as a thing to enforce, but I'm pretty sure some would find it useful

[Valefort]

Ah yeah, add a description with DCs in it, perfect

[chad878262]

Only issue I can see is the summoner complaining if someone attacks without making a skill check...meanwhile the attacker said "skill checks are only enforceable by DMs" It adds a layer of inconsistencies between the rules and the application which will always lead to player disagreements. I think this is something the DM staff should comment on before you put it in game.

[Hawke]

I don't know... I mean you don't have to be book smart to see and smell and hear an undead to know it is undead.

Same true with evil summons. It has horns, tail, etc.... It is evil obviously.


If the OP does not want everyone to attack their summons on sight, then perhaps a review of the rules are in order.

[Wyatt]

If anything I'd rather see a script that tells OOC who the summon belongs to so we can toggle them hostile and kill the vampire/devil/elemental/etc wandering down the trade way while the player is invisible. I wouldn't expect to know that IC but when there is an OOC barrier preventing me from destroying the evil beast hanging out at the FAI I feel like there should be some way around it aside from toggling the entire server hostile which last I knew was a big no no.