shadow weave bonus to epic spells? fairness?
Posted: Sat Jan 21, 2017 11:02 am
Corrected all epic spells' DCs to 25 + ability modifier (prodigy included, as well as Shadow Weave bonuses/maluses).
In the case of fairness shouldn't blood magic/arch mage be included in this, just because its a dm approved class doesn't make it fair. and it isn't epic caster levels....
blood component/blood seeking
or I'm i confused on what bonus they are getting.
Shadow Weave User
Type of Feat: Spellcasting
Prerequisites: Magical Discovery or Shadow Adept 1
Specifics: From now on, your spells tap the Shadow Weave instead of the Weave. You can also activate magic items that use the Shadow Weave without taking damage. Add a +2 bonus to the DC for all saving throws of spells you cast from the schools of Enchantment, Illusion, and Necromancy, and spells with the darkness descriptor. You also get a +4 bonus on caster level checks for spells from these schools. The Shadow Weave proves less than optimal for effects involving energy or matter. Your effective caster level for spells you cast from the schools of Evocation or Transmutation (except spells with the darkness descriptor) is reduced by four. The reduced caster level affects the spell's range, duration, damage, and any other level-dependent variables the spell might have, including dispel checks against you. The DC's for spells from the negatively affected schools are reduced by two but the casterlevel decrease does not affect the DC of these spells just as the casterlevel increase from other schools does not boost the DC. You can no longer cast spells with the light descriptor, no matter what your level is although you can still use items that produce this effect. Spells with the Light descriptor automatically fail and from now on, any magic item you create is a Shadow Magic item. You are not affected by Wild or Dead Magic zones.
Use: Automatic
Spell Power
Type of Feat: Class
Prerequisites: Shadow Adept 3
Specifics: Shadow Weave spells from the schools of Enchantment, Illusion, and Necromancy are empowered by + 1 at level 3, + 2 at level 6 and + 3 at level 10. Casterlevels gained in this manner can also increase the spell save DC and stack with casterlevel bonuses from other feats or classes.
Use: Automatic
-----------------------
Blood Component
Type of Feat: Class Ability
Prerequisites: Blood Magus 1st level
Specifics: A blood magus may use a drop of his own blood as a spell's material component. The pinprick to draw the requisite blood is a free action that becomes a normal part of casting the spell. Using this ability deals the blood magus 1 point of damage but raises spell's save CL by 1.
Use: Selected
Bloodseeking Spell
Type of Feat: Class Ability
Prerequisites: Blood Magus 6th level
Specifics: The Blood Mague can imbue his spells with the ability to draw blood from their targets. To use this ability, a blood magus must inflict a wound upon himself; this is a free action that deals 3 points of damage to the blood magus and becomes a normal part of casting the spell. Damage reduction doesn't apply. A bloodseeking spell fuels itself on the blood of it's target increasing the casterlevel by 2. This ability is positively reviled throughout civlized lands because it is almost always associated with the ritual sacrifice of unwilling victims. Orcs and other monstrous races are known to practice such profane forms of magic but power crazed cabals are not unheard of in human domains either. Bloodseeking spells are an easy way to gain power but they start the Blood Magus down a path of profane corruption. Use of this ability marks the Blood Magus as having consented to be killed on sight by civilized races of any alignment.
Use: Selected
--------
High Arcana: Spellpower 1
Specifics: At the cost of one 5th level spell your spellpower increases by one (+1 for purposes of determining level-dependent spell variables such as damage dice or range, and caster level checks only). Spell slots are sacrificed the first time the feat is used after resting and must contain a memorized spell.
Use: Automatic
High Arcana: Spellpower 2
Specifics: At the cost of one 7th level spell your spellpower increases by one. Spell slots are sacrificed the first time the feat is used after resting and must contain a memorized spell.
Use: Automatic
High Arcana: Spellpower 3 (requires 8 level of Archmage)
Specifics: At the cost of one 9th level spell your spellpower increases by one. Spell slots are sacrificed the first time the feat is used after resting and must contain a memorized spell.
Use: Automatic
-------------------------------------
from the description of the update it basically states 1 class is getting a bonus from caster level bonus granted feats to epic spells while the rest are being ignored.
and if they are getting the bonus from Add a +2 bonus to the DC for all saving throws of spells you cast from the schools of Enchantment, Illusion, and Necromancy, and spells with the darkness descriptor
it doesn't state epic spells, then this opens up the argument of (spell focus) feats being applied to epic spells
It's a power creep....on one already externally powerful prc class
epic spells + ability modifier was the standard but this update changes the balance and opens a can of worms
epic spells + ability modifer + 1 specific class bonus isn't fair/standard to the rest of the arcane spell casters
-----------------------------------------
Epic Spellcasting
Once an epic spell is developed, the caster knows the spell. A developed epic spell becomes an indelible part of the caster and may be prepared without a spellbook (if a wizard is the caster). Characters who cast spells spontaneously, such as sorcerers, can cast a developed epic spell by using any open epic spell slot. Druids, clerics, and similar spellcasters can likewise prepare epic spells using epic spell slots.
A spellcaster can prepare or cast any epic spell he or she knows as many times per day as he or she has available epic spell slots. A spellcaster who can cast epic spells has a number of open epic spell slots per day equal to one-tenth his or her ranks in the Knowledge skill appropriate to the spell and the caster’s class. Knowledge (arcana) is appropriate for arcane casters, and Knowledge (religion) or Knowledge (nature) is appropriate for divine casters. The rules for rest between casting a day’s allotment of epic spells are the same as for rest required to prepare standard spells. If the caster doesn’t use up a day’s allotment of epic spell slots, the unused slots remain available whether or not the spellcaster receives appropriate rest.
Even if the epic spell has been developed and an epic spell slot is available, successfully casting an epic spell isn’t assured. The caster’s Spellcraft skill modifier is vital for casting an epic spell. To cast an epic spell, a spellcaster makes a Spellcraft check against the epic spell’s Spellcraft DC. If the check succeeds, the spell is cast. If the caster fails the check, the epic spell fizzles and the epic spell slot is used for the day.
Because epic spells require Spellcraft checks, a spell is beyond the caster’s ability if the final Spellcraft DC is greater than 20 + the spellcaster’s Spellcraft modifier. Epic spells with DCs higher than 10 + the spellcaster’s Spellcraft modifier are risky; a caster can take 10 when casting an epic spell, but he or she can’t take 20. When routinely casting epic spells, most spellcasters take 10 on their Spellcraft checks.
Epic Spell Levels
Epic spells have no fixed level. However, for purposes of Concentration checks, spell resistance, and other possible situations where spell level is important, epic spells are all treated as if they were 10th-level spells.
Metamagic, Items, and Epic Spells
Metamagic feats and other epic feats that manipulate normal spells cannot be used with epic spells.
A character can’t craft a magic item that casts an epic spell, regardless of whether the item is activated with spell completion, a spell trigger, a command word, or is use-activated. Only major artifacts, which are beyond the means of even epic characters to create, can possibly contain magic of this power.
The saving throw against a character’s epic spell has a DC of 20 + the character’s relevant ability score modifier. It’s possible to develop epic spells that have even higher DCs, however, by applying the appropriate factor.
here are the factors and shadow weave isn;t listed
Factor Spellcraft
DC Modifier
Unless stated otherwise, the same factor can be applied more than once.
Epic spells may only be inscribed on stone tablets or other substances of equal or greater hardness. Once a spell is so inscribed, another epic spellcaster can learn it without going through the process of development. Once an inscribed epic spell is learned by another epic spellcaster in this fashion, the tablet upon which it is inscribed is destroyed and cannot be mended.
Casting Time
Reduce casting time by 1 round (minimum 1 round) +2
1-action casting time +20
Quickened spell (limit one quickened action/round) +28
Contingent on specific trigger1 +25
Components No verbal component +2
No somatic component +2
Duration2
Increase duration by 100% +2
Permanent duration (apply this factor after all other epic spell factors but before mitigating factors) ×5
Dismissible by caster (if not already) +2
Range
Range Increase range by 100% +2
Target3
Add extra target within 300 ft. +10
Change from target to area (pick area option below) +10
Change from personal to area (pick area option below) +15
Change from target to touch or ray (300-ft. range) +4
Change from touch or ranged touch attack to target +4
Area4
Change area to bolt (5 ft. ×300 ft. or 10 ft. ×150 ft.) +2
Change area to cylinder (10-ft. radius, 30 ft. high) +2
Change area to 40-ft. cone +2
Change area to four 10-ft. cubes +2
Change area to 20-ft. radius +2
Change area to target +4
Change area to touch or ray (close range) +4
Increase area by 100% +4
Saving Throw
Increase spell’s saving throw DC by +1 +2
Spell Resistance
Gain +1 bonus on caster level check to overcome target’s spell resistance +2
Gain +1 on caster level check to beat foe’s dispel effect +2
Other
Recorded onto stone tablet5 ×2
Increase damage die by one step (d20 maximum) +10
can the dm's/devs explain their reasoning at least? because in my opionion this has no basis on lore , epic spells, and I feel that some sort of favoritism intentional or not might be a factor as powercreep tweaks usually go and shadow adept is far from a weak dc class
tldr
arguing that one specific class shouldn't get an epic spell dc bonus because no other class gets this bonus..and it should be applied to other classes or removed to not being fair and has no basis in lore
where are talking about +40 dc epic spells here
In the case of fairness shouldn't blood magic/arch mage be included in this, just because its a dm approved class doesn't make it fair. and it isn't epic caster levels....
blood component/blood seeking
or I'm i confused on what bonus they are getting.
Shadow Weave User
Type of Feat: Spellcasting
Prerequisites: Magical Discovery or Shadow Adept 1
Specifics: From now on, your spells tap the Shadow Weave instead of the Weave. You can also activate magic items that use the Shadow Weave without taking damage. Add a +2 bonus to the DC for all saving throws of spells you cast from the schools of Enchantment, Illusion, and Necromancy, and spells with the darkness descriptor. You also get a +4 bonus on caster level checks for spells from these schools. The Shadow Weave proves less than optimal for effects involving energy or matter. Your effective caster level for spells you cast from the schools of Evocation or Transmutation (except spells with the darkness descriptor) is reduced by four. The reduced caster level affects the spell's range, duration, damage, and any other level-dependent variables the spell might have, including dispel checks against you. The DC's for spells from the negatively affected schools are reduced by two but the casterlevel decrease does not affect the DC of these spells just as the casterlevel increase from other schools does not boost the DC. You can no longer cast spells with the light descriptor, no matter what your level is although you can still use items that produce this effect. Spells with the Light descriptor automatically fail and from now on, any magic item you create is a Shadow Magic item. You are not affected by Wild or Dead Magic zones.
Use: Automatic
Spell Power
Type of Feat: Class
Prerequisites: Shadow Adept 3
Specifics: Shadow Weave spells from the schools of Enchantment, Illusion, and Necromancy are empowered by + 1 at level 3, + 2 at level 6 and + 3 at level 10. Casterlevels gained in this manner can also increase the spell save DC and stack with casterlevel bonuses from other feats or classes.
Use: Automatic
-----------------------
Blood Component
Type of Feat: Class Ability
Prerequisites: Blood Magus 1st level
Specifics: A blood magus may use a drop of his own blood as a spell's material component. The pinprick to draw the requisite blood is a free action that becomes a normal part of casting the spell. Using this ability deals the blood magus 1 point of damage but raises spell's save CL by 1.
Use: Selected
Bloodseeking Spell
Type of Feat: Class Ability
Prerequisites: Blood Magus 6th level
Specifics: The Blood Mague can imbue his spells with the ability to draw blood from their targets. To use this ability, a blood magus must inflict a wound upon himself; this is a free action that deals 3 points of damage to the blood magus and becomes a normal part of casting the spell. Damage reduction doesn't apply. A bloodseeking spell fuels itself on the blood of it's target increasing the casterlevel by 2. This ability is positively reviled throughout civlized lands because it is almost always associated with the ritual sacrifice of unwilling victims. Orcs and other monstrous races are known to practice such profane forms of magic but power crazed cabals are not unheard of in human domains either. Bloodseeking spells are an easy way to gain power but they start the Blood Magus down a path of profane corruption. Use of this ability marks the Blood Magus as having consented to be killed on sight by civilized races of any alignment.
Use: Selected
--------
High Arcana: Spellpower 1
Specifics: At the cost of one 5th level spell your spellpower increases by one (+1 for purposes of determining level-dependent spell variables such as damage dice or range, and caster level checks only). Spell slots are sacrificed the first time the feat is used after resting and must contain a memorized spell.
Use: Automatic
High Arcana: Spellpower 2
Specifics: At the cost of one 7th level spell your spellpower increases by one. Spell slots are sacrificed the first time the feat is used after resting and must contain a memorized spell.
Use: Automatic
High Arcana: Spellpower 3 (requires 8 level of Archmage)
Specifics: At the cost of one 9th level spell your spellpower increases by one. Spell slots are sacrificed the first time the feat is used after resting and must contain a memorized spell.
Use: Automatic
-------------------------------------
from the description of the update it basically states 1 class is getting a bonus from caster level bonus granted feats to epic spells while the rest are being ignored.
and if they are getting the bonus from Add a +2 bonus to the DC for all saving throws of spells you cast from the schools of Enchantment, Illusion, and Necromancy, and spells with the darkness descriptor
it doesn't state epic spells, then this opens up the argument of (spell focus) feats being applied to epic spells
It's a power creep....on one already externally powerful prc class
epic spells + ability modifier was the standard but this update changes the balance and opens a can of worms
epic spells + ability modifer + 1 specific class bonus isn't fair/standard to the rest of the arcane spell casters
-----------------------------------------
Epic Spellcasting
Once an epic spell is developed, the caster knows the spell. A developed epic spell becomes an indelible part of the caster and may be prepared without a spellbook (if a wizard is the caster). Characters who cast spells spontaneously, such as sorcerers, can cast a developed epic spell by using any open epic spell slot. Druids, clerics, and similar spellcasters can likewise prepare epic spells using epic spell slots.
A spellcaster can prepare or cast any epic spell he or she knows as many times per day as he or she has available epic spell slots. A spellcaster who can cast epic spells has a number of open epic spell slots per day equal to one-tenth his or her ranks in the Knowledge skill appropriate to the spell and the caster’s class. Knowledge (arcana) is appropriate for arcane casters, and Knowledge (religion) or Knowledge (nature) is appropriate for divine casters. The rules for rest between casting a day’s allotment of epic spells are the same as for rest required to prepare standard spells. If the caster doesn’t use up a day’s allotment of epic spell slots, the unused slots remain available whether or not the spellcaster receives appropriate rest.
Even if the epic spell has been developed and an epic spell slot is available, successfully casting an epic spell isn’t assured. The caster’s Spellcraft skill modifier is vital for casting an epic spell. To cast an epic spell, a spellcaster makes a Spellcraft check against the epic spell’s Spellcraft DC. If the check succeeds, the spell is cast. If the caster fails the check, the epic spell fizzles and the epic spell slot is used for the day.
Because epic spells require Spellcraft checks, a spell is beyond the caster’s ability if the final Spellcraft DC is greater than 20 + the spellcaster’s Spellcraft modifier. Epic spells with DCs higher than 10 + the spellcaster’s Spellcraft modifier are risky; a caster can take 10 when casting an epic spell, but he or she can’t take 20. When routinely casting epic spells, most spellcasters take 10 on their Spellcraft checks.
Epic Spell Levels
Epic spells have no fixed level. However, for purposes of Concentration checks, spell resistance, and other possible situations where spell level is important, epic spells are all treated as if they were 10th-level spells.
Metamagic, Items, and Epic Spells
Metamagic feats and other epic feats that manipulate normal spells cannot be used with epic spells.
A character can’t craft a magic item that casts an epic spell, regardless of whether the item is activated with spell completion, a spell trigger, a command word, or is use-activated. Only major artifacts, which are beyond the means of even epic characters to create, can possibly contain magic of this power.
The saving throw against a character’s epic spell has a DC of 20 + the character’s relevant ability score modifier. It’s possible to develop epic spells that have even higher DCs, however, by applying the appropriate factor.
here are the factors and shadow weave isn;t listed
Factor Spellcraft
DC Modifier
Unless stated otherwise, the same factor can be applied more than once.
Epic spells may only be inscribed on stone tablets or other substances of equal or greater hardness. Once a spell is so inscribed, another epic spellcaster can learn it without going through the process of development. Once an inscribed epic spell is learned by another epic spellcaster in this fashion, the tablet upon which it is inscribed is destroyed and cannot be mended.
Casting Time
Reduce casting time by 1 round (minimum 1 round) +2
1-action casting time +20
Quickened spell (limit one quickened action/round) +28
Contingent on specific trigger1 +25
Components No verbal component +2
No somatic component +2
Duration2
Increase duration by 100% +2
Permanent duration (apply this factor after all other epic spell factors but before mitigating factors) ×5
Dismissible by caster (if not already) +2
Range
Range Increase range by 100% +2
Target3
Add extra target within 300 ft. +10
Change from target to area (pick area option below) +10
Change from personal to area (pick area option below) +15
Change from target to touch or ray (300-ft. range) +4
Change from touch or ranged touch attack to target +4
Area4
Change area to bolt (5 ft. ×300 ft. or 10 ft. ×150 ft.) +2
Change area to cylinder (10-ft. radius, 30 ft. high) +2
Change area to 40-ft. cone +2
Change area to four 10-ft. cubes +2
Change area to 20-ft. radius +2
Change area to target +4
Change area to touch or ray (close range) +4
Increase area by 100% +4
Saving Throw
Increase spell’s saving throw DC by +1 +2
Spell Resistance
Gain +1 bonus on caster level check to overcome target’s spell resistance +2
Gain +1 on caster level check to beat foe’s dispel effect +2
Other
Recorded onto stone tablet5 ×2
Increase damage die by one step (d20 maximum) +10
can the dm's/devs explain their reasoning at least? because in my opionion this has no basis on lore , epic spells, and I feel that some sort of favoritism intentional or not might be a factor as powercreep tweaks usually go and shadow adept is far from a weak dc class
tldr
arguing that one specific class shouldn't get an epic spell dc bonus because no other class gets this bonus..and it should be applied to other classes or removed to not being fair and has no basis in lore
where are talking about +40 dc epic spells here