shadow weave bonus to epic spells? fairness?

[7threalm]

Corrected all epic spells' DCs to 25 + ability modifier (prodigy included, as well as Shadow Weave bonuses/maluses).



In the case of fairness shouldn't blood magic/arch mage be included in this, just because its a dm approved class doesn't make it fair. and it isn't epic caster levels....

blood component/blood seeking

or I'm i confused on what bonus they are getting.


Shadow Weave User
Type of Feat: Spellcasting
Prerequisites: Magical Discovery or Shadow Adept 1
Specifics: From now on, your spells tap the Shadow Weave instead of the Weave. You can also activate magic items that use the Shadow Weave without taking damage. Add a +2 bonus to the DC for all saving throws of spells you cast from the schools of Enchantment, Illusion, and Necromancy, and spells with the darkness descriptor. You also get a +4 bonus on caster level checks for spells from these schools. The Shadow Weave proves less than optimal for effects involving energy or matter. Your effective caster level for spells you cast from the schools of Evocation or Transmutation (except spells with the darkness descriptor) is reduced by four. The reduced caster level affects the spell's range, duration, damage, and any other level-dependent variables the spell might have, including dispel checks against you. The DC's for spells from the negatively affected schools are reduced by two but the casterlevel decrease does not affect the DC of these spells just as the casterlevel increase from other schools does not boost the DC. You can no longer cast spells with the light descriptor, no matter what your level is although you can still use items that produce this effect. Spells with the Light descriptor automatically fail and from now on, any magic item you create is a Shadow Magic item. You are not affected by Wild or Dead Magic zones.
Use: Automatic


Spell Power
Type of Feat: Class
Prerequisites: Shadow Adept 3
Specifics: Shadow Weave spells from the schools of Enchantment, Illusion, and Necromancy are empowered by + 1 at level 3, + 2 at level 6 and + 3 at level 10. Casterlevels gained in this manner can also increase the spell save DC and stack with casterlevel bonuses from other feats or classes.
Use: Automatic

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Blood Component
Type of Feat: Class Ability
Prerequisites: Blood Magus 1st level
Specifics: A blood magus may use a drop of his own blood as a spell's material component. The pinprick to draw the requisite blood is a free action that becomes a normal part of casting the spell. Using this ability deals the blood magus 1 point of damage but raises spell's save CL by 1.
Use: Selected

Bloodseeking Spell
Type of Feat: Class Ability
Prerequisites: Blood Magus 6th level
Specifics: The Blood Mague can imbue his spells with the ability to draw blood from their targets. To use this ability, a blood magus must inflict a wound upon himself; this is a free action that deals 3 points of damage to the blood magus and becomes a normal part of casting the spell. Damage reduction doesn't apply. A bloodseeking spell fuels itself on the blood of it's target increasing the casterlevel by 2. This ability is positively reviled throughout civlized lands because it is almost always associated with the ritual sacrifice of unwilling victims. Orcs and other monstrous races are known to practice such profane forms of magic but power crazed cabals are not unheard of in human domains either. Bloodseeking spells are an easy way to gain power but they start the Blood Magus down a path of profane corruption. Use of this ability marks the Blood Magus as having consented to be killed on sight by civilized races of any alignment.
Use: Selected

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High Arcana: Spellpower 1
Specifics: At the cost of one 5th level spell your spellpower increases by one (+1 for purposes of determining level-dependent spell variables such as damage dice or range, and caster level checks only). Spell slots are sacrificed the first time the feat is used after resting and must contain a memorized spell.
Use: Automatic


High Arcana: Spellpower 2
Specifics: At the cost of one 7th level spell your spellpower increases by one. Spell slots are sacrificed the first time the feat is used after resting and must contain a memorized spell.
Use: Automatic


High Arcana: Spellpower 3 (requires 8 level of Archmage)
Specifics: At the cost of one 9th level spell your spellpower increases by one. Spell slots are sacrificed the first time the feat is used after resting and must contain a memorized spell.
Use: Automatic
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from the description of the update it basically states 1 class is getting a bonus from caster level bonus granted feats to epic spells while the rest are being ignored.

and if they are getting the bonus from Add a +2 bonus to the DC for all saving throws of spells you cast from the schools of Enchantment, Illusion, and Necromancy, and spells with the darkness descriptor

it doesn't state epic spells, then this opens up the argument of (spell focus) feats being applied to epic spells

It's a power creep....on one already externally powerful prc class

epic spells + ability modifier was the standard but this update changes the balance and opens a can of worms

epic spells + ability modifer + 1 specific class bonus isn't fair/standard to the rest of the arcane spell casters

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Epic Spellcasting
Once an epic spell is developed, the caster knows the spell. A developed epic spell becomes an indelible part of the caster and may be prepared without a spellbook (if a wizard is the caster). Characters who cast spells spontaneously, such as sorcerers, can cast a developed epic spell by using any open epic spell slot. Druids, clerics, and similar spellcasters can likewise prepare epic spells using epic spell slots.

A spellcaster can prepare or cast any epic spell he or she knows as many times per day as he or she has available epic spell slots. A spellcaster who can cast epic spells has a number of open epic spell slots per day equal to one-tenth his or her ranks in the Knowledge skill appropriate to the spell and the caster’s class. Knowledge (arcana) is appropriate for arcane casters, and Knowledge (religion) or Knowledge (nature) is appropriate for divine casters. The rules for rest between casting a day’s allotment of epic spells are the same as for rest required to prepare standard spells. If the caster doesn’t use up a day’s allotment of epic spell slots, the unused slots remain available whether or not the spellcaster receives appropriate rest.

Even if the epic spell has been developed and an epic spell slot is available, successfully casting an epic spell isn’t assured. The caster’s Spellcraft skill modifier is vital for casting an epic spell. To cast an epic spell, a spellcaster makes a Spellcraft check against the epic spell’s Spellcraft DC. If the check succeeds, the spell is cast. If the caster fails the check, the epic spell fizzles and the epic spell slot is used for the day.

Because epic spells require Spellcraft checks, a spell is beyond the caster’s ability if the final Spellcraft DC is greater than 20 + the spellcaster’s Spellcraft modifier. Epic spells with DCs higher than 10 + the spellcaster’s Spellcraft modifier are risky; a caster can take 10 when casting an epic spell, but he or she can’t take 20. When routinely casting epic spells, most spellcasters take 10 on their Spellcraft checks.

Epic Spell Levels
Epic spells have no fixed level. However, for purposes of Concentration checks, spell resistance, and other possible situations where spell level is important, epic spells are all treated as if they were 10th-level spells.

Metamagic, Items, and Epic Spells
Metamagic feats and other epic feats that manipulate normal spells cannot be used with epic spells.

A character can’t craft a magic item that casts an epic spell, regardless of whether the item is activated with spell completion, a spell trigger, a command word, or is use-activated. Only major artifacts, which are beyond the means of even epic characters to create, can possibly contain magic of this power.

The saving throw against a character’s epic spell has a DC of 20 + the character’s relevant ability score modifier. It’s possible to develop epic spells that have even higher DCs, however, by applying the appropriate factor.


here are the factors and shadow weave isn;t listed

Factor Spellcraft
DC Modifier
Unless stated otherwise, the same factor can be applied more than once.


Epic spells may only be inscribed on stone tablets or other substances of equal or greater hardness. Once a spell is so inscribed, another epic spellcaster can learn it without going through the process of development. Once an inscribed epic spell is learned by another epic spellcaster in this fashion, the tablet upon which it is inscribed is destroyed and cannot be mended.


Casting Time
Reduce casting time by 1 round (minimum 1 round) +2
1-action casting time +20
Quickened spell (limit one quickened action/round) +28
Contingent on specific trigger1 +25
Components No verbal component +2
No somatic component +2
Duration2
Increase duration by 100% +2
Permanent duration (apply this factor after all other epic spell factors but before mitigating factors) ×5
Dismissible by caster (if not already) +2
Range
Range Increase range by 100% +2
Target3
Add extra target within 300 ft. +10
Change from target to area (pick area option below) +10
Change from personal to area (pick area option below) +15
Change from target to touch or ray (300-ft. range) +4
Change from touch or ranged touch attack to target +4
Area4
Change area to bolt (5 ft. ×300 ft. or 10 ft. ×150 ft.) +2
Change area to cylinder (10-ft. radius, 30 ft. high) +2
Change area to 40-ft. cone +2
Change area to four 10-ft. cubes +2
Change area to 20-ft. radius +2
Change area to target +4
Change area to touch or ray (close range) +4
Increase area by 100% +4
Saving Throw
Increase spell’s saving throw DC by +1 +2
Spell Resistance
Gain +1 bonus on caster level check to overcome target’s spell resistance +2
Gain +1 on caster level check to beat foe’s dispel effect +2
Other
Recorded onto stone tablet5 ×2
Increase damage die by one step (d20 maximum) +10


can the dm's/devs explain their reasoning at least? because in my opionion this has no basis on lore , epic spells, and I feel that some sort of favoritism intentional or not might be a factor as powercreep tweaks usually go and shadow adept is far from a weak dc class

tldr
arguing that one specific class shouldn't get an epic spell dc bonus because no other class gets this bonus..and it should be applied to other classes or removed to not being fair and has no basis in lore

where are talking about +40 dc epic spells here

[Valefort]

The vanilla nwn2 formula for epic spells is 25 + casting stat modifier so there is no power creep there.

Regarding the bonuses/maluses from shadow weave it is only the ones given relative to the spell school of the epic spell, ie a +2 bonus to the DC for schools of Enchantment, Illusion, and Necromancy and a -2 DC for Evocation or Transmutation, nothing caster level related.

A 32 base INT + prodigy mage (so as much as one can get) can get a modifier of 14 so the DC on vamp feast would be 41 instead of 39.

They used to have the bonus before the big update so it was given back, as for the reasoning that lead to give it in the first place I don't know.

[Ariella]

The reasoning is simply because epic spells still use the weave/shadow weave. The bonus and negative is based on the source you draw for your spells. Blood magic and archmage or even spell focus's are an augmentation of the magic not an alternative source, Besides its a benefit for two epic spells (Two cleric, One Wizard) and a negative for four.

[Invoker]

tldr
arguing that one specific class shouldn't get an epic spell dc bonus because no other class gets this bonus..and it should be applied to other classes or removed to not being fair and has no basis in lore

where are talking about +40 dc epic spells here

The other classes get flat CL bonuses, while for this one it's a tradeoff between CL and DC bonuses for certain schools, and penalties for others.

It's not a matter of fairness or lore: you're off the mark with the comparison.

40-41 DC instead of 38-39 DC? I bet you would never notice the difference between my mage and a shadow adept, even if the latter's DCs are slightly higher.

This isn't an issue at all.

[7threalm]

2 dc is a big deal especially considering their epic spells....

and it not justified in lore or pnp

32+4 item =14+25+2 = 41

this is only arcane, I hope there are not any druid shadow adapts......

the class is already very strong...

2 dc can make or break a death spell...

39 dc epic spell say a mob has 30 fort (+20 roll) it now has a 1-9 chance to die
41 dc epic spell say a mob has 30 fort (+20 roll) it now has a 1-11 chance to die

[Ariella]

It is supported in lore, Epic spells still use the weave or shadow weave. Once you are using the shadow weave every spell you cast makes use of it.

[Invoker]

2 dc is a big deal especially considering their epic spells....

No, it's not, especially considering they are epic spells.

And no, I have no Shadow Adept character, no vested interest whatsoever.

and it not justified in lore or pnp

It really is, but I wouldn't care, either way.

32+4 item =14+25+2 = 41

this is only arcane, I hope there are not any druid shadow adapts......

There are, it can go higher, and it's still no big deal.

2 dc can make or break a death spell...

No. I disagree.

Make me an example of an Epic Spell with DC 41 instead of 39 is game breaking. Give me a situation. I'll show you it isn't.

[7threalm]

let alone they already get high dc espically if they focus in necro for lvl 9 spells

energy drain/vamp..

39 dc epic spell say a mob has 30 fort (+20 roll) it now has a 1-9 chance to die
41 dc epic spell say a mob has 30 fort (+20 roll) it now has a 1-11 chance to die

I watched one 1 shot the frost king.....

[Invoker]

let alone they already get high dc espically if they focus in necro for lvl 9 spells

energy drain/vamp..

I watched one 1 shot the frost king.....

Every mage can do that with Wail of the Banshee. Same DC of course, because your epic CL bonus kicks in, as well as the Epic Focus.

Really bad example. If you waste VF for that, you aren't very good.

[Rasael]

There is a difference between Blood Mages and Shadow Adepts .The Blood Magus feats give a bonus to casterlevel. The Shadow Weave feat(s) grant a direct bonus to DC for a given spell-school. (As Invoker wrote)

If the Blood Magus feats had directly affected DC then they should also have affected epic spells. But they don't affect DC directly. So since casterlevel doesn't determine the DC of epic spells, Blood Magus abilities have no effect on them.


Apart from that, the original reason for Shadow Weave spells to affect epic DC's is because the lore specified so. (As Ariella mentioned)

Originally my plan was to also make it possible for there to be a disaster if you used epic spells against someone highly warded with the opposite weave. Random creatures from the Hells or Abyss popping in, people randomly teleported. That sort of thing. Never got around to it. And I don't think QC would okay it just like that either.

[7threalm]

as long as the dm's agree, and that shadow magic bonus apply to epic spells, thats fine.

But no where is lore is stated that epic spells get modified by the shadow weave.
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Shadowcasters are magic users who concentrate on studying shadow magic.[1] This involves a significantly different path of study than learning most arcane magic, and requires a dedicated mind. Its secrets are closely guarded, so book learning is often not possible—shadowcasters are often chosen very selectively and then taught everything they know on the subject.[2]

Most often found working for the churches of deities who grant access to the darkness domain, shadowcasters tended to be solitary individuals who faced persecution from paladins and good-aligned clerics regardless of their actual actions and intentions, due to a belief that anyone so closely linked to the plane of shadow must be inherently evil.

True, the shadow plane was full of evil entities but the plane itself was only mildly evil-aligned and anyone with a disciplined enough mind could master the bizarre power available from it. Many also thought shadowcasters were tied to Shars Shadow Weave but this was not the case. Due to the direct link a shadowcaster had with the plane itself, its powers could just as easily be accessed with the Weave.

Shadow adepts are a type of shadowcaster.
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just remember going forward other potential prcs are going to cast epic spells. This is setting the precident that all shadow magic dc bonus will affect epic spells. Its a bad precedent to set I think...but it is what is.

and yes some of you think im saying just because they have it, I should have it to. I don't really care personally

The point im getting at is that this is the precident is being set.....nothing else has affected epic spells on there server for a long time.

its lore pnp breaking...but dm's can say its okay...and it is what it is

so my question to the dm's is does shar shadow weave great +2 dc
Or does the plane of shadow great +2 dc?

[DM Ditto]

For the sake of clarification:

A common misconception is that "shadow magic" is synonymous with the "Shadow Weave".

Shadow Magic is simply the Weave channeled from the Plane of Shadow. A different way to harness the Weave, but at its core it is still Mystra's Weave. For a metaphor, if magic is water, shadow magic is water with a layer of scum on top. Underneath, it is still the same water that you drink and bathe with, but you cannot use the water without dealing with the scum.

On the other hand, the Shadow Weave is a form of magic that flourishes where the regular Weave is not - the spaces between the Weave, and other places where the Weave is not present (which is why Shadow Adepts - wielders of the Shadow Weave - can cast freely in dead magic zones). To continue the metaphor, I would say that the Shadow Weave is comparable to the trace minerals in water. You won't notice it in the water unless you were trained to taste for it, and the minerals still remain even if the water dries up.

You can refer to DM Echo's write-up on shadow magic and the Shadow Weave for further information.