Trapfinding for Arcane Tricksters

[The Whistler]

Shamelessly selfish suggestion here. Rogue and Divine Seeker are the only classes currently that are able to disarm traps with DC>20. Would ATs receiving trapfinding make them OP or dilute the rogue class fantasy/power ? I personally don't believe so, but I opened this thread to discuss these two possible concerns that may arise.

[BigJ]

Heh I can see the advantages in this as I played a wizard with a monk dip. The extra 3/4 ac was handy, which you can now do with the Phantom and qualify for trickster.

It does seem a minor bonus to add to trickster, but some might be sensitive to it as Rogue has already just lost one of its class defining feats to another class (Epic Precision). Losing another one to a wizard class of all things might be a bit much. (Eg. People are already more likely to need wizards around than rogues, one of the only reasons to have a rouge around is for that high end trap breaking).

I'm not against the idea mind you, I'm on the fence. Its just rogue is already mostly a 3-dip class to qualify for other things.

BigJ

[Invoker]

Shamelessly selfish suggestion here. Rogue and Divine Seeker are the only classes currently that are able to disarm traps with DC>20. Would ATs receiving trapfinding make them OP or dilute the rogue class fantasy/power ? I personally don't believe so, but I opened this thread to discuss these two possible concerns that may arise.

I didn't know you were playing one!

Interesting questions, btw. One is easy to answer from the mechanical standpoint, while the other is more philosophical, and probably subjective.

AT is pretty low on the power level to be an arcanist, so giving it this perk would certainly not make it overpowered.

As for the Rogue, I enjoyed mine for the versatility, the amount of skills and raw damage it could bring along. AT certainly doesn't deal the same dmg/round (nowhere near that), but it's far more survivable and well rounded thanks to its spellbook.

All in all, I guess it depends on whom you ask, and their level of satisfaction (or lack thereof) with the Rogue class.

@BigJ: Epic Precision for a Rogue means delivering 8-10d6 worth of SA dice dmg, weapons excluded. For Swashbuckler, I have trouble imagining it netting more than 5-6 dmg. Don't think Rogues lost anything there: they are far, far superior to any Swashbuckler character with more than a 5-level dip.

[BigJ]

@BigJ: Epic Precision for a Rogue means delivering 8-10d6 worth of SA dice dmg, weapons excluded. For Swashbuckler, I have trouble imagining it netting more than 5-6 dmg. Don't think Rogues lost anything there: they are far, far superior to any Swashbuckler character with more than a 5-level dip.

Oh I wasn't mentioning it as regards to power, just that it has already recently lost the exclusive use of a class feat. Same thing with trap-finding feat, not so much a question of power, just taking away another speciality that gives rogues some rp/group advantages, and losing it to a wizard of all things.

Adventurer A: Shall we hire a rouge for our dungeon delving? There maybe powerful traps after all.
Adventurer B: Nah, just get a wizard as they bring spells / summons / buffs too.

But I don't play a rogue currently so I'm on the fence. I do have a rogue/trickster/crafter PC though, so I can see some advantages if he were a phant/AT rather than rou/AT. Minor gains though, mostly just the philosophical conerns that may go against it.

BigJ

[Invoker]

Adventurer A: Shall we hire a rouge for our dungeon delving? There maybe powerful traps after all.
Adventurer B: Nah, just get a wizard as they bring spells / summons / buffs too.

I understand what you mean. Personally, I never had the problem, because in truth, you hire "capable individual X to solve problem Y along the way", and Rogues can definitely solve many, don't have much of a downtime, and pack a lot of punch. But from the OOC perspective, I see where you're coming from.

But I don't play a rogue currently so I'm on the fence. I do have a rogue/trickster/crafter PC though, so I can see some advantages if he were a phant/AT rather than rou/AT. Minor gains though, mostly just the philosophical conerns that may go against it.

BigJ

Personally, I played a "Phantom" extensively on other servers, long ago (before I even knew BGTSCC). Phantom, like Monk or Warlock, is a very level-intensive class: you need to invest a lot to get a good return from it, otherwise something else is going to be a far superior choice. Phantom is already inherently multi-attribute dependant (WIS and DEX for instance), and adding INT to the pool isn't especially attractive unless you get really a lot from it (like with Invisible Blade, for instance).

For a PrC like AT, Rogue (which usually stops at 10 levels) is far better than Phantom (which is useless with only 10 levels).

[Valefort]

Not sure the change is needed, I can imagine sorc 6/ BG 4/ asoc 10/ AT 10 being able to disable traps, on top of what they can already do.

[The Whistler]

It fits the theme and fantasy of the class and is a pretty harmless change overall. Is it needed ? Definitely not.

[Invoker]

Not sure the change is needed, I can imagine sorc 6/ BG 4/ asoc 10/ AT 10 being able to disable traps, on top of what they can already do.

You sure? I don't like that build very much.

It has likely low DCs to fit that stuff in, trouble to land SA and issues getting skills high enough in a wide enough array to justify 10 levels of AT.

I'd prefer either Ro/Wiz/AT/SD (thematic), or Sorc/BG/ASoC/EK (moving away from AT) if anything.

[Valefort]

Nevermind, I thought AT had a 1d6 SA requirement but it's 2 SA so the build I spoke about is impossible anyway.

[BigJ]

For a PrC like AT, Rogue (which usually stops at 10 levels) is far better than Phantom (which is useless with only 10 levels).

I actually meant as 3 lvl dip to qualify for AT. They both have the 2d6 and skills, Phantom has the wis bonus to AC (only need 12/14 + Owls for 3/4 ac extra) and rogue had the trap finding which eventually drew to me that. I figured I would more likely die to a high level trap opening a chest in the UD, than due to a lack of 3/4 ac if I played him right.

Then there are builds that do not need the phant/rouge dip at all, and get the 2d6 elsewhere.

BigJ