Baldur's Gate : The Sword Coast Chronicles : NWN2 Persistent World

Its been mentioned in another thread that QC are reviewing Gish builds, so to give some of the discussion its own thread:

Remove the Spellcraft requirement for autostill.

At 27 its to high, being an epic feat should be restriction enough for this, especially as you need to spend 3 epic feats to get full autostill (0-3, 4-6, 6-9).

Revamp the Eldritch Knight class.

Its open to all alignments and arcane casters, but just having high bab and d6hp doesn't help that much (effectively its just +5 bab and 20hp)

Perhaps it could be turned into an archmage style class, for melee. Ie. A high martial feat instead of high arcana feat, every two levels? Copying and tweaking the archmage code and keeping the High Martial feats to things that already exist IG should hopefully mean an easy implementation? This also allows for a little customisation for each EK gish (Choose from differing levels of +ab, +ac, +damage, +cl, sacrificing the relevant spell slots).

Not sure about the +cl one as that might make it to easy to build for +30cl, so maybe not or a limit on those.

Of course it would be easier to just add a couple of feats to EK, but I like the idea of providing a choice.

Other thoughts?

BigJ

Its High unlikely EK to get anything more, unless the CL progression drops.

mrm3ntalist wrote:Its High unlikely EK to get anything more, unless the CL progression drops.

That at least draws a line regarding other PrC suggestions if EK is considered balanced, relating to arcane builds.

I would compare EK to Daggerspell Mage though, and say its under powered.

DS - d6hp, med bab, Ref + Will high saves, 6 +int skill points plus lots of options (inc tumble), 9/10 progression, 3d6 SA, Free combat feat, bonus damage, and that daggercast / throw stuff I don't really get, so not sure how powerful it is

EK - d6hp, high bab, Fort high saves, 2 +int skill points few options, 9/10 progression, a couple of really throw away feats (combat casting, +3 spellcraft).

Seems to pay a lot to get that +3 bab compared to 10 levels of a DS.

We could drop the EK progression, but I'll roll with QC regardless if no change is needed and just use EK as a reference to measure other PrC's.

BigJ

BigJ wrote:Seems to pay a lot to get that +3 bab compared to 10 levels of a DS.

Yes it pays a lot. However, you see that EK is used a lot. Even more than DS for example. A caster should pay high price for fighter (High) BAB. The same way a Fighter sees his BAB drop when multiclassing with a caster class/PRC.

QC might have given the impression that there is a CL/Dispel issue or something, since i see many posts about uping the CL progression of classes. I apologise for that misconception and it is my fault, but there is no dispel/CL issue. The only thing we are looking at the moment, is working on some melee classes and develop a couple new prcs that the Devs took interesting in.

BigJ wrote:

mrm3ntalist wrote:Its High unlikely EK to get anything more, unless the CL progression drops.

That at least draws a line regarding other PrC suggestions if EK is considered balanced, relating to arcane builds.

I would compare EK to Daggerspell Mage though, and say its under powered.

DS - d6hp, med bab, Ref + Will high saves, 6 +int skill points plus lots of options (inc tumble), 9/10 progression, 3d6 SA, Free combat feat, bonus damage, and that daggercast / throw stuff I don't really get, so not sure how powerful it is

EK - d6hp, high bab, Fort high saves, 2 +int skill points few options, 9/10 progression, a couple of really throw away feats (combat casting, +3 spellcraft).

Seems to pay a lot to get that +3 bab compared to 10 levels of a DS.

We could drop the EK progression, but I'll roll with QC regardless if no change is needed and just use EK as a reference to measure other PrC's.

BigJ

High BAB is a big difference... I realize you say it's just +5 over a Wiz or +3 over a DSM in your example, but that can be a big difference between getting over the BAB21 hump for 5 APR or not. A level 30 low BAB class has BAB 15, high has 30 and medium has 22 (no progression at 1, 5, 9, 13, 17, 21, 25, 29 so 30-8=22). A simple W20/EK10 only hit's BAB20, sure, but when you change that to a W13/EK10/DS7 you retain CL30 and now have a BAB of 23. Meanwhile, if you change that to W13/DSM10/DS7 (nevermind it's an illegal build, just doing this for comparison of apples to apples), for example you end up at CL30, but BAB is only 20 (4 APR, 8 if PTWF vs. 5 and 10 for the EK build).

In addition to this, because these builds have a lot of significant ways to increase AB over and above what a non-caster would hit, that extra attack has a better chance of hitting... In addition, getting to that 10th attack / round would result in an additional sneak attack for the DSM. This is what makes DSM builds that are based on WIZ, as opposed to Warlock more difficult. You have to chose between getting more SA, keeping your AB up and keeping your caster level up. It's fairly difficult to build a DSM for a Wizard and have it be a strong build. you want 3 SD for HiPS, at least 3 rogue for SA, 10 DSM and then what? If you go 14 WIZ for CL27 you end up with BAB 18 (terrible). You could go W12/DSM10/A8 I think, but CL would only be 25 and BAB 19 (terrible)... Warlock DSM's are much easier, since they are also medium BAB (and because dispels don't hurt them as much). The point is to show how important High BAB is and why medium BAB allows to give quite a bit more in terms of other perks.

mrm3ntalist wrote:

BigJ wrote:Seems to pay a lot to get that +3 bab compared to 10 levels of a DS.

Yes it pays a lot. However, you see that EK is used a lot. Even more than DS for example. A caster should pay high price for fighter (High) BAB. The same way a Fighter sees his BAB drop when multiclassing with a caster class/PRC.

QC might have given the impression that there is a CL/Dispel issue or something, since i see many posts about uping the CL progression of classes. I apologise for that misconception and it is my fault, but there is no dispel/CL issue. The only thing we are looking at the moment, is working on some melee classes and develop a couple new prcs that the Devs took interesting in.

According to figures posted in Jan (swash thread) there were 222 EK's, with 1770 wizards, hardly call that a lot. More than DS / Frost / Dragonslay, sameish as Archmage / ArcTrick / Bloodmage, much less than Palemaster and less than half of ASoC.

I absolutely agree though there is no dispel/cl issue, I enjoy it in fact. Makes you have to think about things, rather than just running around with immunity.

I think I get it though now, what your saying is -

High Bab + 9/10 progression means no other feats / bonuses and limited skill choices, otherwise its OP. Noted.

Side Note: My Arcane Trickster / crafter lands sneak attacks as will, as long as something is attacking his summon and not him. He doesn't tend to draw aggro with his ranged attack, although my Gish build does when he melee's. As long as my AT is in range he hits a SA, no hips. Is this a bug?

BigJ

Interesting thing, is that in Pnp Eldritch knight gets to choose a bonus feat from the fighter list.

chambordini wrote:

mrm3ntalist wrote:Yes it pays a lot. However, you see that EK is used a lot. Even more than DS for example. A caster should pay high price for fighter (High) BAB. The same way a Fighter sees his BAB drop when multiclassing with a caster class/PRC.

This doesn't even remotely apply to two of the most powerful and popular classes on the server, clerics and favored souls.

Do they get a High BAB PRC with full CL progression?

mrm3ntalist wrote:

chambordini wrote:

mrm3ntalist wrote:Yes it pays a lot. However, you see that EK is used a lot. Even more than DS for example. A caster should pay high price for fighter (High) BAB. The same way a Fighter sees his BAB drop when multiclassing with a caster class/PRC.

This doesn't even remotely apply to two of the most powerful and popular classes on the server, clerics and favored souls.

Do they get a High BAB PRC with full CL progression?

He means Divine Power...it always comes back to Divine Power...

chambordini wrote:What? It doesn't count because it's a spell?

It doesnt when talking about how to make new PRCs. Unless you say lets make all divine PRCs High BAB and Full CL becasue of that spell.

Gishes are in a bad state, if even playable at all anymore. Meanwhile we've got the same clerics and FvS running loose as always.

How are arcane gishes unplayable? Compared to before that is. Their bigest threat is breaches. That was always the case but now we tonned them down.

chambordini wrote:Call it an exception then, because people with access to divine power can (and most certainly will) have 30 BAB and 30 CL,

For the duration the spell.

such considerations are usually restrained to classes and PRCs. Breach gnomes for example were going to have an ability that gave BAB but it was considered too powerful, so it's pretty unique in that regard, and it destroys any scheme of server wide balance standard in that regard.

The issue is Divine power or examples such as breach gnomes not getting the ability you spoke about? Because with this logic, lets give evry class, everything because of this. Lets even give spells to every class.

This game ( with divine power ) is what we were given. That is what we had to work though these many past years and that is what we will continue to do.

Yes it pays a lot. However, you see that EK is used a lot. Even more than DS for example. A caster should pay high price for fighter (High) BAB. The same way a Fighter sees his BAB drop when multiclassing with a caster class/PRC.


This doesn't even remotely apply to two of the most powerful and popular classes on the server, clerics and favored souls.
Do they get a High BAB PRC with full CL progression?

He means Divine Power...it always comes back to Divine Power...

Time to grab the torches and pitchforks and go on a witch hunt for those damn clerics and favored souls for awhile again.........

Okay so a W10/EK10/DS10 is completely viable here and even a great GISH. Reaches CL30 with Practiced SC and has full spell book with a +4 Int helm from that Thayans. I am sure you could cross class instead with a Palemaster over DS and get Crit immunity instead.......Just saying there are plenty of GISH opportunities out there if people just build them instead of arguing why the dispel ruined the GISH chance here. Yeah so you could go W10/PM10/DS10 as well and that would be a great build too. The possibilities are pretty boundless here just do not go on witch hunts and blame PBs for lack of creativity........

chambordini wrote:It's not a witch hunt Calodan. I have nothing against these divine characters. But don't deny that they are a bunch of notches above everyone else, heck, I remember you saying your character Kory would only work on a FvS. Where's your creativity then? Please.

There is no argument that FS, then Clerics are top tier regarding gishes. No arguing that. They are not as good DC casters as arcanes though, are they?

Some classes wil lbe better than others in different areas. this is to be expected. However, if something is unplayable we should look at it. Are arcane gishes unplayable though?

chambordini wrote:It's not a witch hunt Calodan. I have nothing against these divine characters. But don't deny that they are a bunch of notches above everyone else, heck, I remember you saying your character Kory would only work on a FvS. Where's your creativity then? Please.

Well at the time I had no idea of how to use Arcane spells and what was in the spell book enough. Learning the divine spell book was much easier since it focused directly on defensive ward magic. After being able to play here for some time I would have to say Kory was probably better off as a W10/EK10/DS10 considering his RP from the beginning. That was my point though that at the time I had no creativity because I did not know the game itself. You can not fault a new player for gravitating towards a build which allows them to realize their story and make it fun for them. I now look at all sorts of builds PB and otherwise and I can be far more creative now than before. Besides there are so many great PRCs here to cross class with and still get to CL30. A PM Gish is a nice idea to be honest. Melee paralyze hand with crit immune and full arcane wards of premonition, mirror images, displacement is yummy cheese.

Arcane gishes are playable. Everything is playable, actually.

The issue probably is whether it's about top tier soloing 99% of the server content, and of course, PvP.

PS– W10/EK10/Dragonslayer10 is CL 28 with PsC.