Divine Power

[Nachti]

You gain the following bonuses: 1 extra hit point per caster level, +6 to Strength, and base attack bonus improves to that of a Fighter of the same level.

Maybe make the attack bonus be applied like tensers transformation? That means no extra attack is granted.

[Sun Wukong]

The response of every cleric and favored soul player on the server:

But on a more serious note, why not let Tenser's Transformation grant BAB instead of AB? That would mean that extra attacks are granted, and it would balance out the whole no spellcasting thing of it.

Hmn... I think I can imagine the reaction already:

So, if we turn back to Divine Power, why not make it so that having it on prevents spell casting? You know, your member of a clergy is filled to the prim with divine power, and cannot help but to swing his weapon around in that divinely powered glory?

Hmn... I think I can imagine the reaction already:

Wait, how does the server react to anyone making such suggestions as these?

So, how about one last attempt to be serius.

What would be the end result of such a change? What would warrant it in the first place? Is there a net good to be gained or is it just going ruffle feathers?

[chad878262]

The extra attack is certainly beneficial, but the main reason it puts divine gish above arcane gish is because they can take low AB PRC's, mix and match however they want and still have 30 BAB whenever they want (depending on extended metamagic, if they have STR domain as clerics, etc.) There is no way Tenser's will give BAB 30 (what would be the point of Dragon Slayer, Eldritch Knight, etc?) In addition to all of this, because it is BAB, not AB it is not subject to the +20 cap.

I think it's a great idea to make DP give an Attack Bonus of Character Level-BAB (So at Character Level 20 w/ BAB of 16 you get +4 AB; at level 30 with BAB 21 you get +9 AB). You are still getting bonus HP as well as +6 to STR so it would still be a solid spell, but would add value to divine PRC's that have a High BAB such as Hospitaler, Dragon Slayer or War Priest.

That said, Comments Only has the right of it. Suggestions to make changes to Divine Power are generally not well received.

[Calodan]

Was discussing this the other day with a friend about Divine Power and Tenser's differences. When I look at Tenser's and Divine power I am not seeing the difference? Divine POwer gives +1 HP/CL, +6 STR and BAB of a FIghter (This is the big one I presume? Since it modifies BAB and does not count towards the +20 to increase cap on NWN2 ) Tensers gives +4 to STR, DEX, CON and NAT AC, +5 Fortitude Saves and +AB = Your Level - BAB the crutch here for the Tenser's is not all that as opposed to divine power but that while you are in Tenser's the 100% Arcane Failure is what drives it to be actually worse than DP? I mean other than DP modifying BAB directly as opposed to being a AB buff that would be the issue correct? If DP only gave your level - BAB it would be far worse in fact than Tenser's. Tenser's grants way more in terms of buffing your PC in the moment for fighting. DP gives +3 AB via STR Buff and then depending on your PC build +AB equal to 30 - YOUR BAB. For Divine melee builds this is almost essential to making the build work to fight epic monsters at all. I fully understand where Arcane Gishes suffer in this department but where they suffer in Attack they make up for in Tanking ability with far more powerful arcane spells in Mirror Images (This is on the OP Spell list just as much as Divine Power BTW) Greater Invis or Displacement, Premonition is awesome and people need to try it out more. Mirror images + GI or D + Premonition is insanely powerful as you get 50% concealment 30/- DR and multiple images to hit before you can be hit at all. You may not hit as often as that FvS or Cleric with Divine Power but you will be standing when it is all said and done and that is what truly matters I know because for all his power Kory still winds up in the fugue in DM events too often. In fact I have to carry around arcane scrolls to put Kory over the top and with the dispel fix well you know how it goes from there......Divine power is powerful yes I am not saying it is not but so are arcane spells and if people use them right they are going to be just as powerful in a different way. With all that said though I would be in favor of making Tenser's more of a match for Divine Power but this would of course put Arcane Gish's in the top category of the server I believe when combined with the extreme wards that arcane can provide in the later spell levels. As I said they are two sides of a coin one offensive the other defensive but this is just my opinion and well those opinions of us FvS........

[chad878262]

Was discussing this the other day with a friend about Divine Power and Tenser's differences. When I look at Tenser's and Divine power I am not seeing the difference? Divine POwer gives +1 HP/CL, +6 STR and BAB of a FIghter (This is the big one I presume? Since it modifies BAB and does not count towards the +20 to increase cap on NWN2 ) Tensers gives +4 to STR, DEX, CON and NAT AC, +5 Fortitude Saves and +AB = Your Level - BAB the crutch here for the Tenser's is not all that as opposed to divine power but that while you are in Tenser's the 100% Arcane Failure is what drives it to be actually worse than DP? I mean other than DP modifying BAB directly as opposed to being a AB buff that would be the issue correct? If DP only gave your level - BAB it would be far worse in fact than Tenser's. Tenser's grants way more in terms of buffing your PC in the moment for fighting. DP gives +3 AB via STR Buff and then depending on your PC build +AB equal to 30 - YOUR BAB. For Divine melee builds this is almost essential to making the build work to fight epic monsters at all. I fully understand where Arcane Gishes suffer in this department but where they suffer in Attack they make up for in Tanking ability with far more powerful arcane spells in Mirror Images (This is on the OP Spell list just as much as Divine Power BTW) Greater Invis or Displacement, Premonition is awesome and people need to try it out more. Mirror images + GI or D + Premonition is insanely powerful as you get 50% concealment 30/- DR and multiple images to hit before you can be hit at all. You may not hit as often as that FvS or Cleric with Divine Power but you will be standing when it is all said and done and that is what truly matters I know because for all his power Kory still winds up in the fugue in DM events too often. In fact I have to carry around arcane scrolls to put Kory over the top and with the dispel fix well you know how it goes from there......Divine power is powerful yes I am not saying it is not but so are arcane spells and if people use them right they are going to be just as powerful in a different way. With all that said though I would be in favor of making Tenser's more of a match for Divine Power but this would of course put Arcane Gish's in the top category of the server I believe when combined with the extreme wards that arcane can provide in the later spell levels. As I said they are two sides of a coin one offensive the other defensive but this is just my opinion and well those opinions of us FvS........

A lot of good points in this post and probably why changes don't get made... The ASF is a big one and something that's being considered, but not sure if anything will change there. The BAB DP gets is what put's it over the top, but as you said Cleric/FS don't get the top arcane buffs. Of course, they do get regeneration and the majority of their wards cannot be breached. In addition it is easier to get to CL30 since you don't have to worry about keeping BAB up.

It really is a tough discussion topic. changing DP would certainly bring FS and Cleric down a notch or two, but I think they'd still hold their own in the buff and bash department. Meanwhile, it is not like arcane gishes are all that under powered. Sure, they don't do a whole heck of a lot of damage, but in many cases they can be buffed to the point of being completely unhittable (until they get hit with a breach...)

[Nachti]

If people are too afraid to touch clerics/favoured soul, why bother at all with balancing all these prestige classes, feats and spells?

Touching divine power is one step of balancing clerics and favoured souls against paladins and fighters.

[Calodan]

If people are too afraid to touch clerics/favoured soul, why bother at all with balancing all these prestige classes, feats and spells?

Touching divine power is one step of balancing clerics and favoured souls against paladins and fighters.

This is your answer to actual intelligent conversation that people are afraid? Shaking my head. Read the conversation that Chad and I were having again. It has nothing to do with fear. In fact I believe if Arcane Gish's could cast spells while using Tenser's your call for a nerf of Divine power is in fact a moot point as it would elevate arcane gish's quite a bit to be able to cast again while in Tenser's. Let us not forget that Tenser's grants Martial Weapon proficiency as well which is quite powerful if you decide not to go the EK route on your GISH.

[Calodan]

If people are too afraid to touch clerics/favoured soul, why bother at all with balancing all these prestige classes, feats and spells?

Touching divine power is one step of balancing clerics and favoured souls against paladins and fighters.

Agreed absolutely. It's somewhat alright when the policy is to only buff things, but when you go and nerf spells like holy sword... (and that was before paladin kits turned paladins better).

What's funnier is that from memory the nerf to holy sword came when a QCer saw a FvS user use it from a wand and deemed the spell too powerful.

Can you believe the irony?

In point of fact that FvS was Kory running the VOD with Chad said QCer and Holy Sword at 1min/CL with a working Dispel was too OP but in no way is this comparable to Divine Power. The dispel was catching all the enemy GISH's in a ward loop to keep trying to cast their buffs after the dispel fix went it as well so the power of the Holy Sword with Dispel broke the server. The server is still working just fine with Divine Power except for the occasion grumpy QCer and player who for some reason thinks every class should be on the same level. Funny enough it is the same people over and over arguing with the same people over and over while the server just keeps playing on without us..........

[ginsu]

I think clerics are already restricted in many ways on this server. Should we still nerf it more?

We can't have time domain, so no haste supported by persistent spell metafeat, wich is the way to go on a combat cleric in a build if you want to be a warrior cleric. Battletide is good, but is not even close to be the same.

Divine Power have a short duration, so if you really need to relly on it for your attacks, you will need to load spell slots with that, and will can't use other spells then, from that level. And again, it will end fast. Consider even the fact that as you progress on your levels you must to wait more and more for your next rest, and this, if in the map you are, have a place to rest.

I have myself a toon named Ceifador. He doesnt even have any kind of powers and can outmatch any warrior cleric in weapon fight, not counting the use of spells that aren't wards.

Even a well made Eldritch Knight can outmatch a good cleric warrior build from this server.

A simple Frenzied Berseker can be a destruction machine near it...

[ginsu]

Another thing I forgot, remember that a warrior cleric rellys on wards. What happens when it get dispelled?

You right! The cleric dies!

[chad878262]

I think you are misinformed about what a "good" warrior cleric can do. They are top tier right behind well built Favored Souls and roughly equal to STR Bards or any of the other highest tier. STR domain and extend spell can allow for extended divine power in 4th level and 5th level slots and most of their wards on those levels are hour / level. There is absolutely no reason to have CL below 30 on a cleric since you can already get EDM you can either take water domain or 3 levels in rogue or Monk for evasion/EW. Any warded cleric will destroy most non-caster builds (read: any non-caster that is not a dwarven defender).

If people are too afraid to touch clerics/favoured soul, why bother at all with balancing all these prestige classes, feats and spells?

Touching divine power is one step of balancing clerics and favoured souls against paladins and fighters.

Agreed absolutely. It's somewhat alright when the policy is to only buff things, but when you go and nerf spells like holy sword... (and that was before paladin kits turned paladins better).

What's funnier is that from memory the nerf to holy sword came when a QCer saw a FvS user use it from a wand and deemed the spell too powerful.

Can you believe the irony?

Tell me how you really feel, Chambo.

As I recall, the details of the Holy Sword and Lawful Sword conversation were a bit more complex than just me seeing Kory with a wand. In fact, the last suggestion I made was to make Holy Sword minute/level, but remove the on hit dispel and then make lawful sword round / level and add on hit dispel. This would have given Paladins their 30 minutes of 2d6 damage vs. evil and allowed for on hit dispel as a round / level spell. The issue was that the damage crits, so folks can make LG users with wands that crit for 6d6 damage on roll of 12 or higher. I don't know why we didn't go this route, but I believe it was also stated we should remove the wands as well, due to the damage issue or make the damage not able to crit. It wasn't just 'one qc'er saw a FvS user on a wand'... There was a bit more discussion than that and in two separate threads. If you would like to discuss it again feel free to bring it back up, but I'm pretty sure that there were several QC'ers that felt with wands the damage and on hit dispel were too powerful to be min/level.

But this thread is about divine power, which we have also discussed a few times.

[Zethrenx99]

I like the idea of making divine power based on Caster Level and not Character Level. So it has a reduced benefit to those who only dip into cleric for DP and take a bunch of low AB classes while having no effect on pure or full caster clerics (with 4 levels to work with if you take practiced spell caster.)

But that's just me. I think that Tensers for its high spell level, spell failure and AB cap it is definitely worse in comparison.

[kleomenes]

I've been known to play a cleric.

I think this change would be fair. At the moment it feels like godmode (I do play a fighter cleric mix)

[ginsu]

I challenge anyone using a cleric to win a duel against Ceifador.

Rules are:

You can ward as much as you want. I will not use any spell.

When the duel starts, only weapons are allowed.


Maybe that way we can see who is right?

[7threalm]

I hope you all the best of thought with this, it be nice of divine power = spell failure but they won't ever be allowed with the way players are.

closer to tensnors

anything that gives +20 ab is pretty damn good, and prolly isn't to balance but players will cry murdur...

mabey if we gave fighters 9th level spell books for 2-3 mins it might make sense

base attack bonus isn't a privlege or a skillset to aquire ( its something that can be easily modifed by wiz/clerics)