Fighter / Mage / Thief builds - what do you prefer?

[chad878262]

Currently playing a Drow W/EK/A/AT, which I am really enjoying, but I flip flop as to if it would be better to keep the current build, which at level 30 will be W6/EK8/A8/EK8 (yes, I am aware W5/EK9 is slightly better, but the 2 HP extra doesn't really bother me) vs. going to a W6/EK10/AT10/R4. As I see it, the benefits of the two are like this:

Assassin build gets HiPS, and one more sneak dice (8d6 vs. 7d6).

Rogue build gets evasion, expose weakness, ability to disarm traps over DC20 and higher caster level (29 vs. 25).

Losing HiPS is tough, but summoning can allow for flank sneak attacks when you don't have a buddy to adventure with and you also have 2 / day impromptu SA from AT. As I said, it is a tough call, but the issue I am having with the HiPS build is that it is very reliant on HiPS, whereas the other build is very reliant on summons and not being dispelled (invisibility wand can help here, but not necessarily as reliable as HiPS).

So what are your thoughts, if you were making such a build? Where would you put your priorities? it does sound nice to Expose Weakness and then impromptu sneak, but either way there is no Epic Precision for crit immunes.

[Invoker]

I would probably play a Wizard/Rogue/SD/AT. Where to stop with the Rogue levels (3-10) is up to you, and depends on what you're looking for (more SA dmg & Rogue goodies vs CL/spell power).

Assassin is mutually exclusive with AT, imho. You can play it, but then you should go with something like Wiz/BM(partially offsets your CL loss, at least offensively)/Asn types. Wiz/SA/Asn is another option, while AM is too feat-intensive for this kind of build to be good.

Conversely, with the CL fix, builds like Sor-Wiz/IB totally lost their appeal (to me, at least).

[chad878262]

Well the goal is more a PTWF sneak attack gish (think 2e F/M/T using wiz for defense, high bab to get 21 BAB, AT and assassin or rogue for backstab and skills).

For a RTA sneak I agree with you 100%, but I fully realize this is a non-optimum type... However, my favorite PC from the BG infinity games and 2e p&p was an elf FMT melee'r so trying to do my best to recapture that.

[Invoker]

Well the goal is more a PTWF sneak attack gish (think 2e F/M/T using wiz for defense, high bab to get 21 BAB, AT and assassin or rogue for backstab and skills).

Ah, I understand. How low are you willing to go with CL? It's possible to do some neat tricks with stuff like Wiz/EK/Asn/Swash, but your CL will get hurt pretty badly (CL 20 with PS...). Such an INT-based character, with Death Attack and Combat Insight is pretty deadly out of stealth, but the dispelling mobs have to die first, of course...

If you are hell bent on AT, then I would probably mix it with Bodyguard (one of the most powerful 3 level-dips in the game, imho). Something like Wiz7/EK10/AT10/Bodyguard3 comes to mind. No hips, but no low CL pains either.

For a RTA sneak I agree with you 100%, but I fully realize this is a non-optimum type... However, my favorite PC from the BG infinity games and 2e p&p was an elf FMT melee'r so trying to do my best to recapture that.

I understand fully! It's just one of those types where "less is more", so if you wish to fit everything in for RP purposes, you need to set some boundaries on what you're willing to lose, and in what measure (ex: how low can CL go? How many SA dice, minimum? And the likes). A Drow character will do well with all of the above, anyway.

[chad878262]

How low are you willing to go with CL? It's possible to do some neat tricks with stuff like Wiz/EK/Asn/Swash, but your CL will get hurt pretty badly (CL 20 with PS...). Such an INT-based character, with Death Attack and Combat Insight is pretty deadly out of stealth, but the dispelling mobs have to die first, of course...

I considered going W/SB/A/EK, but rejected for the lack of 9th level spells as well as the low CL. CL 25 is at least immune to regular dispel and Greater dispel from a level 20 caster requires a roll of 16 or better on the d20 so at a minimum with HiPS you have some dispel protection (though mords will strip you bare, you have etherealness as somewhat of a get out of jail free card along with HiPS).

If you are hell bent on AT, then I would probably mix it with Bodyguard (one of the most powerful 3 level-dips in the game, imho). Something like Wiz7/EK10/AT10/Bodyguard3 comes to mind. No hips, but no low CL pains either.

I also did consider this as it gets CL30 and a movement boost along with the same amount of sneak dice as my rogue idea. The reason I like the rogue variant better is simply due to evasion, expose weakness and the 'roguish' feel of being able to disable traps, even if it really isn't necessary. From a 'power' perspective I figure Evasion/EW trumps what Bodyguard provides.


The reason I considered the rogue variant is exactly what you said.

"less is more"

and the fact that losing HiPS makes you 'near' immune to greater dispel. CL28 or 29 is close enough that it won't be much of an issue in PvE or most boss fights. However, with no HiPS you don't have a reliable way to consistently land sneak attacks. Even with Combat Insight in epics, gish builds are low damage and TWF gishes are even less effective. The sneak damage can rectify that when not facing crit immunes and a decent INT allows for at least some spells to use when facing crit immunes, so long as you aren't trying to grind them. I haven't been able to fit CE/Feint in to a build as it's very feat intensive (Able Learner cuz I'm a skill junky, Weapon Finesse, Martial Weapon Proficiency, and Practiced Spell Caster means you get 3 feats, plus a wizard metamagic). Basically I could drop TWF and be a bow/single weapon fighter, which would allow something like CE/Feint/One Hander (or quicken!) but then instead of 4 sneak attacks in a flurry I would only get 2. It's a very give and take build, which is why I like it. It's very imperfect, but there are lots of things you can do to make a very different build in regards to how it approaches various combat situations. That's why I wanted to see what some others would prioritize. I currently lean towards HiPS even though it is lower CL and has no evasion/EW, but as I said, it's really close IMO.

[Invoker]

I considered going W/SB/A/EK, but rejected for the lack of 9th level spells as well as the low CL. CL 25 is at least immune to regular dispel and Greater dispel from a level 20 caster requires a roll of 16 or better on the d20 so at a minimum with HiPS you have some dispel protection (though mords will strip you bare, you have etherealness as somewhat of a get out of jail free card along with HiPS).

Yes, it plays like a somewhat high BAB, high INT assassin rather than a Wizard. The dispel concerns are very valid, while the lack of 9th Circle spells is probably not a bother, considering there's little you can use effectively there.

Such build should always carry boots of etherealness, of course. Or you won't even manage to cast the spell before you're dead, the times you need it .

I also did consider this as it gets CL30 and a movement boost along with the same amount of sneak dice as my rogue idea. The reason I like the rogue variant better is simply due to evasion, expose weakness and the 'roguish' feel of being able to disable traps, even if it really isn't necessary. From a 'power' perspective I figure Evasion/EW trumps what Bodyguard provides.

Might very well be. This build just helps you get the kind of 1st flurry you wanted with the movement speed increase you need to be a "corner sneak". It's more of a benchmark than a final result, though.

It's a very give and take build, which is why I like it. It's very imperfect, but there are lots of things you can do to make a very different build in regards to how it approaches various combat situations. That's why I wanted to see what some others would prioritize. I currently lean towards HiPS even though it is lower CL and has no evasion/EW, but as I said, it's really close IMO.

If you want to keep HiPS, decent CL and Evasion/EW, you can only do it by impacting your AB (see my original suggestion, Wiz/Ro/AT/SD. That's the best you can do with an AT, mechanically speaking, but I appreciate it doesn't fit the RP concept).

[Vesgar]

When I started to think about my current toon I also had the good old half-elf FMT in mind, but when I kinda got lost in trying different builds and compositions I somehow ended up with a Fighter/Assassin/Warrior of Darkness/Rogue build.

With mobs dispelling you left and right it's really not good to have CL lower than 25 or even more. So I just accepted that the most magic my toon will ever see from himself will be from his assassin spellbook (and UMD). Which is like nothing, but that's not the point.

If I were you, I'd pick the one with assassin levels in it, because Death Attack can make a difference, well I never tested it against epic level monsters or bosses, but up to lvl16 I enjoyed paralyzing almost anything for those sweet free sneak attacks. Most of the time I don't even have to use hips, but it's good to have the option to get away from certain death when I really need to.

Also, the same thing with TWF, it looks and feels nice, but I'm so glad I went on the single weapon/one handed path.

[Calodan]

Something to consider is that he has a little warlock gnome he commands around too so CL could be forgone a bit because he order my little butt to get in there and take the dispel/breach/mord nuke for him

So he could forgo some CL.....in favor of better damage mechanics since he will need to wreck whatever is just on my tail quickly......

[Vesgar]

Not everyone has the luxury of owning a fiendish midget to deal with such problems.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[chad878262]

Yea, as I said, I do favor HiPS, though I forgot to list Death Attack as a perk of the Assassin route and I do love making groups of statues out of enemies.

When I started to think about my current toon I also had the good old half-elf FMT in mind, but when I kinda got lost in trying different builds and compositions I somehow ended up with a Fighter/Assassin/Warrior of Darkness/Rogue build.

With mobs dispelling you left and right it's really not good to have CL lower than 25 or even more. So I just accepted that the most magic my toon will ever see from himself will be from his assassin spellbook (and UMD). Which is like nothing, but that's not the point.

The assassin build does reach CL25, but the Rogue hits CL29. Common thought is CL28 is perfectly acceptable the vast majority of the time. If you really want a F/M/T it is very doable, you just have to know your limitations and always have a backup plan/escape route. Even when I lack my cohort/indentured servant I still wreck content a good 2-4 levels above my ECL of 18. When solo I go to a CR 20 area most often, but have gone solo to a bit higher CR areas and was fine (though too far over CR is not worth it because XP is actually reduced.) He actually is quite powerful, but I have been very cognizant of his weaknesses and not staying over long in areas where those weaknesses can be exploited. I actually stay in lower CR area's when Calodan is with me simply because his PC is a bit behind mine in levels (get the lead out, ilbith! )

If I were you, I'd pick the one with assassin levels in it, because Death Attack can make a difference, well I never tested it against epic level monsters or bosses, but up to lvl16 I enjoyed paralyzing almost anything for those sweet free sneak attacks. Most of the time I don't even have to use hips, but it's good to have the option to get away from certain death when I really need to.

Also, the same thing with TWF, it looks and feels nice, but I'm so glad I went on the single weapon/one handed path.

You would be surprised. I had a Ranger/Assassin for ~ 2 years and his DC was only around 21 on Death attack. However, with 12 APR (13 with haste) that is 4 death attacks, 5 with haste... Every round... I don't care if you have a death attack DC of 16, a fair number of 1's will be rolled when you make the enemy roll that many saves. However, with using only 1 weapon, assuming you hit 6 APR/7 with Haste (which you might not, assuming you took 10 levels of Rogue...) you only get 2 death attacks, 3 with haste. So while you saved on some feats and probably have better AC, you won't be forcing as many saves against your death attack. That will have a far bigger impact on how often you paralyze in PvE, not your save. Consider that if you really focused on INT (and thus had a pretty crappy AB) and took 10 levels of Assassin your DC would be 10 + 10 (assasin levels) + 12 (INT Bonus if maxed) = 32. Not bad at all, but like I said your AB will suffer and you have to hit to force the save. Meanwhile, if you get a respectable DC of ~26-28 with PTWF enemies without high fort saves are in trouble, while the high fort save enemies still might roll a 1, and most PvE content does not have Steadfast...

This is not to make you question your build, it's really just to show you that you really do give up quite a bit when you don't go PTWF route with Assassin levels. That's what's fun about builds though, the give and take and just understanding where you are strong and where you have weaknesses.

[Vesgar]

You just made me question my build.

Nah, I'll stick to one hander for now, I know I won't force as many saves as I could with ptfw, but then I can just use hips and try again. :p

[chad878262]

You just made me question my build.

Nah, I'll stick to one hander for now, I know I won't force as many saves as I could with ptfw, but then I can just use hips and try again. :p

Ha! Well as I said it wasn't my 'intent' to do so, I figured it would still have the 'effect'

That said, stick with it man, so long as it is fun to play don't question it and just enjoy what you can do instead of thinking about what you can't. Even the uber power builds can't do everything... Those FvS/Rogue/BG builds will never have the joy of being a sneak that 95% of the server can't spot/hear, even if they can solo the server while AFK or whatever!

(says the guy who made a post questioning his own build because of the couple of things it lacks, but aren't really necessary!)

[nightingale]

Hiya, I'm rebuilding my old drow assassin/AT and decided to go with something like Invoker said: doing bloodmage for that one more CL, (you could get another one offensively, but at the cost of another one defensively). I end up with Cl 27, one shy of the "convenient and often used" benchmark of 28. I'm also maxed out in the int department. They way I see it, HIPS is not really for sneaks as much as it is a defensive ability useful for a mage. The sneaks are nice, the high death attack is nice, and actually, most of the time they are awesome, but in those critical moments, its the quickened spells+HIPS that will take care of you.

AT is my all time favorite PnP class, the versatility is amazing when things aren't dumbed down so that a computer can handle it.

You asked about the different ways to prioritize the AT, and I guess my answer is I didn't really prioritize anything as #1. my CL, sneakiness, spell DC and death attack (8d6, DC 31) are all just a few points too low to claim #1 priority, but I guess I prioritize the "most of the time" play more than others who want that 1 or 2 more points in their specialty for the critical moments.

[Storm Munin]

Ground a halfdrow rogue3/wiz7/AT10/EK10 all the way through epic, drow would be even better.

Without HIPS (feinter) it soloed every level well, granted summons or other players being around make the build perform even better (those 7d6 SA).

Improved Combat Expertise and wards make it defensible.
Meanwhile buffs and Combat Insight make it do decent damage.

Good way to build a powerwise decent trickster build with CL30, not a powerbuild but fun to play since it is so versatile.

Beat most things into submission? check
Spellblast most things into oblivion? check
Fancy roleplay skills? check
Pvp beast? not so much, unless we implement Curse of Monkey Island dueling.


Armor and shields are for smelly people of weak dodgyness.

/M

[Vesgar]

Insult sword-fighting would really revolutionize pvp on bgtscc